Water in the basement ceiling..... That's one big mystery....

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Water in the basement ceiling..... That's one big mystery....

George P.
Real Estate Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 268 votes

So so weird....

The tenant calls about a month ago saying the ceiling in the basement is dripping water o_O. He did shut the water down to prevent further damage.

We rush there, open up the ceiling, drain all the water (collected good couple of gallons), make three holes (big enough to stick a head and look around) but find no source of leakage! Opened the water supply again - NOTHING is leaking ! o_O.... I mean you can see the water on the sheetrock, but you just don't see where it WAS coming from. 

It's been a month, and no other water has leaked - we left the holes open hoping it would leak again so we can identify the source.... Nothing !....

The kitchen is right above it, checked all the appliances (including the fridge with the ice maker), under the sink - all is dry there .... Double checked the ice maker - it's still making the ice.... 

BTW It's been one of those very cold weeks on the East Coast (zero-ish degrees) The outside spigots have been "winterized". No loss of water pressure, no loss of water anywhere in the house have been identified....

Any ideas as to what else we could check?...... Don't want to drywall the ceiling before getting to the root of this mystery.... 

BEFORE we opened the ceiling:

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Erin Estes
Realtor · Goodyear, AZ · Member since 2015 · 151 posts · 59 votes
11y

Did Baltimore see a lot of snow this winter?  If it's been an unusually snowy winter and it's all beginning to melt, it may be coming in from outside.  I've seen some houses whose owners claimed they had dry basements only to discover that they are only really dry for ten months or so out of the year because in the spring when the snow melts and the rains come, it's just too much to keep out and it comes in as it pleases.  Good luck!

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  • Nicole A.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Baltimore County Maryland and Tampa Florida · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    Did you look at the pipes while they were running water upstairs too?

    1Reply
  • Jerry W.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    I have on occasion found when you get ice buildup on the roof the north side can form dams and you have water go under shingles and run into the ceiling.  Thats a long way from the basement, it would have to wick a long ways.  You might look for lateral water stains just in case.

    2Reply
  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    We had a roof leak that went into the first floor flooring.  We also had some trouble discovering where the water was coming from.   It wicked down the outside of the building and went into the floor so you did not see it on the wall.  The building is stone though.

    The other issue can be overflow from fixtures where the grouting or caulking is damaged. That is a lot of water to be from that source unless someone overfilled in the sink above.

    1Reply
  • Erin Estes
    Realtor · Goodyear, AZ · Member since 2015 · 151 posts · 59 votes
    11y

    Did Baltimore see a lot of snow this winter?  If it's been an unusually snowy winter and it's all beginning to melt, it may be coming in from outside.  I've seen some houses whose owners claimed they had dry basements only to discover that they are only really dry for ten months or so out of the year because in the spring when the snow melts and the rains come, it's just too much to keep out and it comes in as it pleases.  Good luck!

    3Reply
  • Phil Monkhouse
    Investor · Sugar Land, TX · Member since 2015 · 19 posts · 3 votes
    11y

    Could be condensation rather than leaky plumbing, especially since you note that it's colder than usual in your area. Water vapor hitting a poorly insulated cold area then turning into liquid water maybe. Any insulation work or other renovations done above recently? I have seen something similar on the top floor of a house but not as much water when the attic insulation has blown away in an area.

    1Reply
  • George P.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 268 votes
    11y

    Thanks for all the suggestions everybody.

    Just to add some more details.

    Its a 2-story TH. The  water leaked in the basement's ceiling.

    It's been cold that week, with lots of snow and ice.

    The new roof was just replaced about two-three months ago, with ice sheets installed (3 feet I think).

    I just don't think it could be a condensation issue since we filled at least one full 3-gallon bucket. 

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  • Jered Sturm
    Investor/Syndicator · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2014 · 470 posts · 599 votes
    11y

    After reading Everything I am reaching for ideas but here are some I didn't see mentioned. 

    - Dishwasher. Something like a dishwasher pump malfunction may only leak when it was run. 

    -Although condensation was mentioned if there is 3 gallons of water between a finished basements and a finished kitchen above its probably not condensation. UNLESS there is a dryer duct, stove duct, heat duct, or even furnace exhaust running through a joist cavity that is very drafty to the exterior. If you have zero degree temps blowing into a joist bay that has a hot metal vent of any kind in it  3 gallons of condensation can easily happen.  How old is the house?

    - If nothing checks out the tenant could be lying. Some times they do things that you could never imagine then lie to you so that they dont have to pay for it. Example: Lets say your tenant was filling up an aquarium in the kitchen when it slipped of the counter and broke on the floor. They clean up the aquarium glass, call you and say there is a leak. You never know. 

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  • George P.
    Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    I agree with the dishwasher suggestion.  that's why there are just leaks anywhere else. 

    3 gallons from condensation is not possible 

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  • George P.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 268 votes
    11y

    Jered - we ran the dishwasher when we were there, and the kitchen faucet, and even flushed the toilets. Right there and even since then, no more water has leaked. The tenant is trustworthy, never had any issues with him.

    The TH was built in 1990s, its occupied.

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  • Mike Baker
    Contractor · Blackfoot, ID · Member since 2013 · 149 posts · 52 votes
    11y
    Water always seeks its own level. Which means it can pool several feet or even yards from the source. If the roof is new I would check the flashings around your bent pipes. It's not uncommon, if there is a poor seal around the pipe, for moisture or water to run down the pipe to lower levels of the house. I would tuck your vent pipes and see if any are in the general area of the water. PM me if you don't quite get what I mean.
    2Reply
  • Jean BolgerPro Member
    Aurora, CO · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    The new roof/lots of snow combo makes me wonder if there was some kind of mistake on the install of the roof. I might start investigating up there since there is no obvious source on the interior, and since it is the only factor in the equation that you know for sure has changed. Have you had any more snow since then?

    2Reply
  • Judy Parker
    Rental Property Investor · Closter, NJ · Member since 2015 · 884 posts · 722 votes
    11y

    Double check that ice-maker (make sure no ice blockage, and no water leaking out of the rear of the fridge).  I never provide refrigerators with ice-makers in rentals or my own house.  They are trouble.  Double-check the sink trap, sink faucets can be temperamental and sporadically leak based upon how they are turned on and off, check the dishwasher (if any), disposal unit, etc.

    1Reply
  • George P.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 268 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jean Bolger:

    The new roof/lots of snow combo makes me wonder if there was some kind of mistake on the install of the roof. I might start investigating up there since there is no obvious source on the interior, and since it is the only factor in the equation that you know for sure has changed. Have you had any more snow since then?

     We are getting some snow today.... maybe an inch or two, but its melting

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  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    I would really take a look at the roof as an issue. For us it was the roof, we had a less then year old roof, first winter.   The second story roof was leaking into the first story floor. It was one piece of flashing where it joined to the rest of the house as far as we could tell.   We called the roofer back to fix it.  

    3Reply
  • Erin Estes
    Realtor · Goodyear, AZ · Member since 2015 · 151 posts · 59 votes
    11y

    I'm going to echo others and say check out that roof, especially since you say it's new.  It's possible it wasn't installed correctly or needs some adjustment.  As the snow melts from this last storm, check to see if you have more issues after.  If you notice a pattern of snow melt/ heavy rain and then more water in the basement ceiling, you may have found your culprit. Good luck!

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  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    11y

    Vent pipe boots - water gets in around the vent pipe (at the roof) and follows the pipe down until it runs laterally, where it then drops onto whatever is beneath. 

    1Reply
  • Dell Schlabach
    Investor · Canton-Akron, OH · Member since 2012 · 917 posts · 477 votes
    11y

    From what you describe, if you can't find a leak and can't reproduce it, If its under the kitchen, I would suspect the kitchen sink overflowed, we have had this happen. Basement ceiling was wet water dripping out of a couple light fixtures. Spend a couple days trying to reproduce it without any success. 

      Discovered that a contractor had turned the water on in the sink, went outside, left water running, sink overflowed, ran into basement ceiling. It wasn't obvious because he had brought his wife in and wiped the floors down to clean up the water.

    I would check the floors and under sink for signs of surface water.

    Maybe the tenants kids accidently overflowed the sink or dumped a bucket of water, then cleaned it up, but not before it ran into downstairs ceiling. I would suspect something along those lines. 

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  • Rob Beland
    Investor · Leominster, MA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 589 votes
    11y

    I'm going to agree with @Dell Schlabach. The tenant overflowed the sink accidentally and didn't tell you. 

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  • George P.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 268 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Colleen F.:

    I would really take a look at the roof as an issue. For us it was the roof, we had a less then year old roof, first winter.   The second story roof was leaking into the first story floor. It was one piece of flashing where it joined to the rest of the house as far as we could tell.   We called the roofer back to fix it.  

     Thank you, I am calling the roofer to come and double check on the flashing

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  • George P.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 268 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jerry W.:

    I have on occasion found when you get ice buildup on the roof the north side can form dams and you have water go under shingles and run into the ceiling.  Thats a long way from the basement, it would have to wick a long ways.  You might look for lateral water stains just in case.

     Jerry - it seem to be the reason. What would you suggest the solution is? I suppose the damn roofer installed the ice shield (3ft) but do not know for sure. We always get the ice dam on the side after the heavy snow. All help is appreciated! 

    Thank you!

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  • Jerry W.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    OK @George P. here is my experience.  First you can get snow shovels with really long handles and runners to pull the snow off the roof from the ground without damaging your shingles.  If you have a two story house that is not feasible.  You can put a type of cord in your rain gutters that runs off a thermostat and will melt the ice and water out of your gutters and run it off your house so you have no ice dams forming.  I would get up in your attic to look and see where the water was coming in from, you can usually tell.  Ice and water shield only has to go up 3 feet for code as far as I know, but ice dams can form up the roof even farther than that.  The cord is like a heat tape and seems to be pretty effective.  I would definitely get in your attic to look, and the damage should be covered by your insurance.  Sorry I am not more help, but that is all I can recall.  It is possible to have a roof leak from something else that only shows up when you have lots of snow on the roof.

    1Reply
  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    10y

    One other possibility is via the ridge vent, since there was significant snow involved; wind could push snow into the ridge vent, just the sheer volume of snow could cause snow to get in the ridge vent - and once inside, it will melt and then you get water. 

    And then there are also vents for air intake such as this link that might possibly allow snow to get in:

    http://www.dciproducts.com/html/smartvent.htm

    1Reply
  • Russell Naylor
    Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2016 · 214 posts · 58 votes
    10y

    Can always call out a company like American Leak Detection, they'll be able to determine if there is any pressurized leaks and they are pretty resourceful at finding leaks if they're not pipe related. We use them in the insurance world when there is a leak happening that we cannot access. 

    My guess is there was some kind of overflow or large spill. Possibly the roof, just seems odd to me that it would have made its way to the basement considering the pipe jacks typically run to bathroom and kitchen exhaust vents. Flashing and vents are always susceptible to leaks though! Good luck figuring out the issue and getting it repaired.

    1Reply
  • Andy Luick
    Real Estate Investor · atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 456 posts · 237 votes
    10y

    That's a good amount of water.  My guess is that's it's either vent boots on the roof....check the furnace and water heater exhaust vents if you have gas units.  If they weren't renailed properly and sealed after the new roof....melting snow could be the source....it will melt against the exhaust pipe and run underneath.  It's best to nail these with serrated roofing nails with a rubber grommet at the top to seal them.  We then seal all edges of the boot and the tops of the nails with Thru-the-Roof sealant....best long term fix I know of.  This product is ususally available at Ace Hardware and the big boxes usually don't carry it.  DAP also makes a clear elastromeric sealant that is available at the big boxes which can be used  in a pinch.....we just prefer the other.

    Don't let roofers use plastic boots....you have to check them on this....use the aluminum based boots for a longer solution and run a bead of sealant around the upper edge of the rubber grommet that seals against the vent pipe.  These boots are used to seal vent pipes for plumbing stacks.

    Check your bathtubs and showers.  Most folks forget to seal around the flange rings at the tub/shower valves, divertors and spouts.  You can use a clear siicone for this.  Someone in the shower with the right stomach or body shape will shed water right into the gap around the rings....and it will send a good amount of water into the wall cavity..where gravity takes it where it will.  We had an odd leak sometime back that was exactly this problem.  Short, chubby guy took long hot showers and caused a leak into our basement unit.  It's a property we've had for about a decade and for some reason, we had never caulked the rings....all caulked now and no more leak.

    In more modern baths, check the joint at the tub/shower and tile.  Most contractors grout these area and they split open pretty quickly....we prefer a color matched sanded caulk in these areas and it holds up much better.  Just look for the "black" in the grount...will indicate a split, gap or hole.

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