Originally posted by @Debbie Lee :

@Barbara Goodman I especially have to thank you for kicking me in the butt, I knew I was like a stone, no matter how many times people said I just won't move... 

I sincerely thank you for taking me on like your own family, you are absolutely amazing !! and I will kick your butt if you ever come to visit Chicago and not ringing me up!!

HI Debbie

You were hard to move forward BUT in the end you really did it all yourself.  You figured out who your friends were and you learned from them.

All by yourself you got those terrible people to give you back $15,000 and you worked them up to a $25,000 offer.  Believe me that wasn't easy.  But you did that!!!  You came on this forum and found out who yours friends were.

The rest of us saw this this young pretty woman, fighting to keep her dreams and her respect, fighting this  terrible bully who stole her money and her dreams and was trying to run her down.  

I am so happy for you and I know you will beat them.  Let us know how you are proceeding.

Stay well and stay strong.

Barbara

And while you are at it Debbie send the same kind of letter/form to your local consumer protection agency:

http://www.consumercomplaintagency.org/

BG

@Wendell De Guzman back in August we had a tv guru sweep through Chicago. They advertised relentlessly day and night. While I was not working in REI then, it caught a friend's eye. She "believed" every word they said and so signed up for the "free" seminar. She signed me up too because she knows that I traditionally had a strong interest in it. I protested but went because I was super hesitant to let them go by themselves.

At the "free" seminar they upsold the majority of the room for a 3 day seminar @ $200, 1 guest included. My friend bit on this, and asked me to go if she paid. I protested, she insisted. Of course I knew they were going to try to upsell more and couldn't let her go on her own.

During the three day seminar, they spent more time talking about upgrading to their "master program" than they did giving details to people about how to get started. Ex: They spent nearly a day teaching people how to structure their business for tax purposes... though of course I knew this was useless because they weren't teaching people enough to actually make money in order to worry about taxes.

Their lesson on how to find cash buyers? The man literally spent 2 minutes on the topic - he told people to Google them. I spent the entire time thinking about this website and all of the free knowledge that anyone could tap into.

Long story short (or is too late for that?)... they eventually dropped the "mastery" program price on people. I believe it started at 19k and went up to 30k or so based on level support. No worries though because they would help people pay from their 401ks, credit cards, etc.

I remember sitting there for three days, watching the *packed* room around me... elderly, disabled, low income people... they all had an excited glow about them. They were going to achieve financial freedom, they were going to get what the speaker had, the boat on the lake. I knew better. I read between the well placed lines. Honestly, my heart broke a little for these people.

This experience reignited my passion for REI so in my opinion a lot of good came from it. Though I can't help but think about all those people in that room.

Anyway, to anyone out there who is considering a guru, please reconsider. There isn't one out there who can compare with the knowledge that can be found right here on BiggerPockets.

Danielle

Debbie about your paying the credit card company.  i think you should ask Lew about this.  I think as long as you are protesting the charges you should not pay the Credit card company.  Actually you can not afford to pay $41,000 back.

Take it as a lesson learned.  I lost 5K to a contractor and was livid, but it taught a valuable skill necessary for the business...I can laugh about it now.  Don't let one incident deter you..Keep it moving!!!

@Danielle Cage I can't agree with you more !! 

Not long ago, I was one of the audience with money star sign glowing in the eyes !! Those guru really caught you by our " greed", and really Rob all money you have, regardless you are retired, young, low income, people with lots of financial struggle....HOW SAD!

After I found out BiggerPockets, I enthusiasticlly spread the news to my "elite group" whom( even single one, at least 30 people ) all paid $40k to the guru, however, I receive no reply, no interested AT ALL. I believe non of them take the advantage of using this web. 

@Rolanda Eldridge yes, I am just pumped and pumped by you guys encouragement....where am I going to get those without BP?

Originally posted by @Lew Payne :

"Here's my counter-offer... you refund my money to my credit cards in full within three days, and I won't initiate multiple charge-backs against you for the full amount.  Not only will you be unable to stop the bank from debiting your merchant account, you'll also incur charge-back fees and the distinct possibility of being classified as a high risk merchant, thus either placing you on the Visa/MasterCard fines program, or raising your merchant rate and holdback ratio.  If you agree to refund my money, the credit must post to my card within three days."

That's the only negotiation which should take place.

I am planing to email out this "counter-offer" to the guru, but worried...am I possibly give them a chance to sue me for " intimidation "? pardon me if this is a dumb question.

Wow, so sorry that happened to you. Please let us know what happens. 

Debbie just blogged the following:

"I am planing to email out this "counter-offer" to the guru, but worried...am I possibly give them a chance to sue me for " intimidation "? pardon me if this is a dumb question."

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Be sure that this company has no intention of sueing you or anyone they have manipulated into getting credit cards and doing wholesaling with MLS.

You are doing everything to get your money back and they will soon realize until they give you your money back you will not stop.

They know the next thing you will do is show up at the door of their next seminar and give out xeroxed information telling people how they have ruined your financial life. You can also give out "Rip OFF" information.  Even if they lose one customer, (and they will lose many more)  by your actions, they will be losing much more then the $26,000 that they owe you.  They can count.

BG

Originally posted by @Debbie Lee :

Originally posted by @Lew Payne:

"Here's my counter-offer... you refund my money to my credit cards in full within three days, and I won't initiate multiple charge-backs against you for the full amount.  Not only will you be unable to stop the bank from debiting your merchant account, you'll also incur charge-back fees and the distinct possibility of being classified as a high risk merchant, thus either placing you on the Visa/MasterCard fines program, or raising your merchant rate and holdback ratio.  If you agree to refund my money, the credit must post to my card within three days."

That's the only negotiation which should take place.

I am planing to email out this "counter-offer" to the guru, but worried...am I possibly give them a chance to sue me for " intimidation "? pardon me if this is a dumb question.

Debbie - In my opinion, you do not have to worry about intimidation.  Intimidation is more along the lines of: "You can steal from me (not pay your rent) if you want, but I think you will change your mind when my "Collection team" of 400 pound Tongans pays you a visit.

Given that you have every right to do ALL those things, telling them is NOT intimidation.  You are reminding them of what you will be doing and of possible ramifications that come with a bad reputation that they have rightly earned. 

I recognize that the Guru is just trying to make a living like the rest of us, BUT...at some point they should recognize that the entire premise of the business is taking advantage of people. I am sad to say that while in college I worked for a company where chargebacks and upsells were the game. It took a while for me to realize this and when I did, I left.  I didn't want to be a part of such a business.

@Andrew Eaton Thank you for your explanation. appreciated !

I wil go ahead and send the email !

UPDATE: GURU send this below email

Debbie,

Per your request we are refunding $25,000.00 to you and downgrading your Coaching Package due to you not being satisfied. We are also going to refund the 3 Day Real Estate Workshop in the amount of $1997.00. I will send a refund agreement for you to sign. Once signed we can process the refund in the amount of $26,997.00. The reason they have decided that amount is because some services were provided and incurred costs for the company as well. They have also accommodated you more than just breaking the legal binding contract you signed, they also added 12 1 on 1 Coaching sessions at no cost.

From originally $14,500 to $19,000 and yesterday's $25,000 now $26,997

How many more number games to play?????

I am sending the "counter offer" letter right now !!!!!

UPDATE: the big guy in charge called me back with a " intimidation " tone,

Debbie, if you are going to make a black mark  on my company by CC company, then the offer $ 26,997 is off the table, and if you go through the dispute you won't get any cent back. 

My reply: I demand a full refund as service written in contract were not given, and I will spread my words allover on net the best way I can, I have hundreds of people behind me, you count your loss !!!

He said: ok ok.... thats do it this way.

UPDATE: so far only $14,500 refunded. possible lost $ 36,000

@Debbie Lee

I'm so sorry to hear your story. I haven't read the whole thread but have you tried to dispute the charges on your credit cards?? My friend got caught up in a bogus time share thing and she disputed the charge several months after she bought it. I would give your credit cards fraud division a call if you haven't already as that maybe your cheapest way to getting all your money back. 

And if that doesn't work I would get in touch with the media and get it on the evening news. If it's a celebrity guru sure they would probably be interested to run the story. Also if you speak to anyone else at that company I would record the call so you have in case you needed to give your lawyer if all else fails. 

I wish you the best of luck with all of this

Her credit card company will have no choice but to reverse the charges (issue a charge-back), at the merchant's expense.  Several cards were used to pay for this service.  For each card that receives a credit (or partial credit), the card company will factor that in.

If there is any information (prior FTC action, fines, etc) on the principals of this company on the internet, now is the time to find it and present it to the fraud department when they ask you for more information.

I can easily get the names of the principals of a business (corporation, LLC, or whatever) via the Secretary of State website, and then run their names for any enforcement actions that may have been taken against them in the past. Such prior actions (especially those that involve defrauding consumers) will not sit well with the card fraud department, nor will it sit well with the seminar company's merchant bank. It is simple to determine which merchant bank they are using... your card company can look up their merchant code and tell you who the merchant bank is. You can then complain directly to their merchant bank and watch their card processing ability get turned off. Ouch... just like what happens to terrorists trying to launder money through the US banking system.

@Laura Williams I have filed for dispute to 2 CC companies. Did your friend got all the money back? what was the amount? did it take long?

If all the complaints to BBB, attorney general, dispute with CC not working, sure I will speak to media. and Yes, the big shark behind the curtain is a HGTV house flip star.

How do you record the phone conversation? I have been wanting to do it.

appreciated !

Alright, for those folks wanting to know what company:

Tarek & Christina El Moussa teamed up with a company called Premium financial training, sucess path education

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/specific_search/premium%20financial%20training

@Debbie Lee  I knew a guy who told me he records all his business phone conversations through an app on his phone. I don't remember the name of it but I would check the phone apps for a good one. 

I haven't talked to my friend who bought the time share in a few weeks to see how her situation turned out but she was thinking her credit card was going to refund her money after talking to them. I'll definitely ask her next time I talk to her and let you know. 

I really hope you can get that money back!!! Hopefully from your credit card as that would be the easiest for you. But in any case you should post on one yelp or one of those rip off sites to warn others about this company. 

Originally posted by @Lew Payne :

I can easily get the names of the principals of a business (corporation, LLC, or whatever) via the Secretary of State website, and then run their names for any enforcement actions that may have been taken against them in the past. Such prior actions (especially those that involve defrauding consumers) will not sit well with the card fraud department, nor will it sit well with the seminar company's merchant bank. It is simple to determine which merchant bank they are using... your card company can look up their merchant code and tell you who the merchant bank is. You can then complain directly to their merchant bank and watch their card processing ability get turned off. Ouch... just like what happens to terrorists trying to launder money through the US banking system.

excellent information here !!

I don't seem to find the names of the principals of Premium Financial Training, would you please help ??

thanks a million 

@Laura Williams thanks in advance for finding out the phone recording app.

ok let me know how did your friend go with refund.

sure I will post everywhere to warn people about the scam.

I don't seem to find the names of the principals of Premium Financial Training, would you please help ??

The company is based out of Utah, here is some interesting reading of all the complaints they have had. Click the link and then click "Read complaint details" for more info on each complaint. Seems to be a common track record and the company always seems to try to offer around 20% refund hoping a sucker will take it. Additionally they will offer "free 1 on 1 training" or "mentoring/ coaching" ...... also known as additional chances to sell more training to the sucker that takes them up on the offer.

http://www.bbb.org/utah/business-reviews/training-...

Here is an example complaint"

Complaint: Dear BBB Representative, On February 22, 2015 I sent an email to the email address on record for Premier Mentoring (*********@premiermentoring.com), regarding a request for refund for non-receipt of an advertised service. I have not received a response from the company, and am writing to the BBB to assist in gaining a refund on the basis that the advertising practices were/are deceptive, and what was promised was not delivered. Attached is the email I sent and the nature of my complaint. To Whom It May Concern, We attended a free seminar on flipping houses on 17 January, 2015 in Raleigh, NC. During the seminar we were told that "we couldn’t possibly cover everything" in a short period of time and encouraged us to sign up for a 3-day Workshop. The 3-Day Workshop would be tailored to our local area where we would be provided with a detailed system for flipping houses, access to an exclusive list of investors, and where to find properties in our area. The book that Premier Financial Training gave us when we purchased the class looked promising as it contained good concepts…however, on the first day of the Workshop, we were told to “leave it home,” thus, what we thought we purchased was not discussed or reviewed. We attended the workshop in Wilmington, NC from 6-8 February, 2015. While high level concepts were presented, we never received a detailed process on how to flip homes from start to finish. Additionally, the workshop that we purchased was not a “workshop” by definition as we were not allowed to ask questions to the speaker. At one point the speaker (***** ******, a.k.a ******), breezed through 6-7 slides in 4 minutes not allowing sufficient time to write information down. When I questioned Mr. ****** at the next break, he told me that they were not part of the handouts and I could not have access to the information. Our first day assignment (to be completed during our 2:16pm lunch break) was to raise $50K in “seed capital” by opening new credit lines and extending the credit lines on our current credit cards. We were also taught tactics how to get around the initial credit card representative and to get to the “Manager” who could raise our credit limits. We were told to be tenacious and not to give up if they denied the request for increasing our credit limits…”it may take 9 or 10 attempts before you succeed.” Much of the remaining 3-days were spent talking about the necessity of “mentors,” increasing our credit limit and purchasing additional training provided by Premium Financial Training. A significant portion of the 3-Day Workshop was spent generating commitment to join “Team W,” (meaning we had purchased an advanced training package). Much less time was spent showing us how to flip houses in our local market. In fact, at least one concept presented is an illegal practice in North Carolina. In summary, we were deceived into purchasing a product that was not delivered. We never received a detailed system for flipping houses, access to an exclusive list of investors, and where to find properties in our area. The printed Workbook material that we were provided when we purchased the 3-Day seminar, was not used or reviewed. The program for finding properties was briefly shown, but we could only have access if we purchased one of the advanced training sessions costing an additional $21,297.00 - $41,297.00 We respectfully request a refund of the $1997.00 that we paid. Additionally, we request a response within the next 5 business days (no later than 27 February), via email or mail. I am providing my personal information below and expect that it is treated with confidentiality as Personal Identifiable Information. Respectfully,

Desired Settlement: I am requesting a full refund, as what was advertised was not delivered.

Business Response: Mr. ***** paid $1,997 to attend the 3 Day Workshop which he did attend. At the time of purchase Mr. ***** signed a contract agreeing the the cancellation/refund policy which reads as follows: "No Questions Asked" Refund Policy: You may cancel this transaction at any time prior to three (3) business days after purchase. Mr. ***** never contacted us to cancel in that time frame.

In addition, Everyone at the event was asked to fill out a Satisfaction Survey at the end. The surveys from all attendees give positive feedback. Mr. ***** chose not to fill one out. Had he done so we would have been able to address his concerns.

We also gave Mr. ***** a $200 travel voucher so he is now out of pocket $1,797 rather than $1,997.

Due to the reasons stated above, Mr. ***** is not eligible for any type of refund but we will however refund him $*** for his dissatisfaction. The refund will be processed upon his agreement.

Business Response: I need Mr. ***** to call me at ************ Ext. *** to confirm his credit card information so I can process the $***.

Consumer Response:
Better Business Bureau:

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and find that this resolution is satisfactory to me. Please let me know the next steps necessary to finalize this.

Sincerely,

****** *****

Another complain... can you see the pattern already?:

Complaint: Services agreed upon were not taken into effect and I was not granted what I was told. myself and my stepfather signed up to go to a realestate seminar which was on April 30 through March 2nd. The cost was 2000$ per team the person speaking at the seminar was an investor and he was talking to us about taking control of our lives and taking chances. He asked us to call all our credit companies to ask for more credit on our cards so that we could use that money to start our own busisness. He also told about 30 of us, their company would guide us through our first few deals until we made our money back and if we did not accomplish our goal we would get a full refund. The cost for the package that we got was 21,297.00$ It consisted of a 3 day boot camp where a realestate investor would come to our area and work in a small group setting and go out in the field.Also a 2 day marketing camp and a 2 day wealth strategies camp which was to help me increase my wealth.We also received 2 online courses, Funding and Financing and Personal Business Success.Also received a included LLC and realestate software. So After We paid the 21,297.00$ They told me that an investor would be in my area in a couple of weeks.I did receive a call on the date the investor would be at the hotel for our classes and field work I was told he would arrive on the 21st of March and it would go through the weekend. Well he arrived on the 20th which was a Thurs. and I got a call from the office asking where I was and I told them I was told it started on a that Fri and they said I was wrong. So I went the rest of the weekend anyways from what I was told by the other people I didn't miss anything. When we arrived that Fri morning I asked the instructor if we were going out on the field today and he said we were not going at all because we were supposed to book our own appointments for him to see. That was not what I was told when I agreed to do this program, we sat in a classroom the whole weekend and went over numbers and how to attain property in different methods. We did learn some things but that wasn't what we paid for. My stepfather and I have been totally left in the dark about this whole thing after that day, we never received any phone calls after that date, and I actually called and complained to the customer service about what was going on and that I wasn't happy with the money we had spent,and she said that she could get me help over the phone and I told her that's not what I paid for.I paid for this program with a check # 1561 that came from my account, but my stepfather had given me the funds to do this and he is on the contract also because he was my partner and his name ******* ******. His name is also on the contract that I signed and he is a senior citizen which I think we were both taken advantage of.The contract No ********. The company has tried contacting me a week ago and I did not respond because my stepfather has written a letter to the Consumer Protection Bureau in Utah. I did speak to someone in billing month ago and she said she would only refund me 5,000$ because that what the 3 day class cost. This is why I am reporting this company.Not only do I feel that this was way over priced with what I got out of it and things were not fulfilled.

Desired Settlement: See Complaint Text

Business Response:

Mr. ***** purchased a Gold Real Estate Mentoring package on 3/2/14 for $21,297. The package included the following:

• FastStart 3 Day Bootcamp

• Marketing 2 Day Camp

• Wealth Strategies 2 Day Camp

• Online courses

• Online Resource Center

• Real Estate Evaluation Software

• Asset Protection

Mr. ***** did attend his FastStart 3 Day Bootcamp, was also given access to the Online Courses and Online Resource Center. He was also given the Real Estate Evaluation Software and Asset Protection. This leaves the Marketing 2 Day Camp and Wealth Strategies 2 Day Camp as they only services not rendered.

At the end of the Bootcamp Mr. ***** was asked to fill out a satisfaction survey in which he gave all 5’s out of 5’s clearly showing his satisfaction of what he had received.

In addition, when Mr. ***** purchased he signed a contract agreeing to the cancellation/refund policy which reads as follows: “No Questions Asked” Refund Policy: “You may cancel this transaction at any time prior to three (3) business days after purchase”. Mr. ***** never made an attempt to cancel within that time frame.

In summary:

Mr. ***** is not eligible for a full refund due to not cancelling with the time frame outlined in the agreed upon Refund Policy and also services being rendered. Premium Financial Training is willing to settle this complaint for a refund of $*****. The refund will be processed upon Mr. *****’s agreement.

Consumer Response:
Complaint: ********

I am rejecting this response because The refund is not enough, I marked satisfactory on the forms that had to do with the presentation not the fulfillment because the information I received was good but nothing was done that was was supposed to be done after the boot camp was over. I was not taken out into the field, I was told I would be walked through my first deal that was not done. I was told I had full funding which was not the case, and had cirtificates that were to be signed stating that I would have a full refund in 90 days if I had not accomplished a deal that was not done. Also the package I purchased was to be funded for everything what I mean by that is my trip to Vagas or Utah that was not the case. As for the software yes I did recieve it but what good does that do when I don't even know how to use it. I am willing to settle for $16500 because I was told by the office that the boot camp was 5000 that's what I'm willing to pay for.

Sincerely,

***** *****

Business Response: Mr. ***** is not eligible for a refund of $16,500. As previously stated, there were services rendered. We are willing to settle this complaint for $****** but will not be able to go any higher. As previously stated, Mr. ***** was clearly satisfied at the end of his FastStart Bootcamp. We stand behind out guarantee to continue to work with Mr. ***** at no additional charge until he has at least made back his investment with Premium Financial Training. The refund will be processed upon Mr. *****'s agreement.

Consumer Response:
Complaint: ********

I am rejecting this response because: I'm sorry but $***** in services were not rendered,Yes the info at bootcamp I was satisfied with but that was information, nothing else followed that information that your company was supposed to provide. I have all the paper work you do so if you want to move forward with this we can. I am just asking for what I deserve nothing more. I was not granted funding, again was not taken out into the field which was supposed to be manditory, also l was to be taken through my first deal and if not refunded within 90 days. How come nothing is being said about that!!! You keep saying that I was satisfied but we're any of these things fulfilled!!! I think not.

Sincerely,

***** *****

Business Response: $****** is the final offer of a refund. The refund will be processed upon Mr. *****'s agreement.

Consumer Response:
Better Business Bureau:

I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and find that this resolution is satisfactory to me.

Sincerely,

***** *****