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All Forum Posts by: Marco Werner

Marco Werner has started 3 posts and replied 12 times.

@Dan H.I actually do not know Seth Phillips (Mr ADU). I am effectively trying to turn a duplex into a triplex through an ADU (zoning wouldn't allow a triplex as of today).

@Amit M. Very helpful. Havent heard of the condo piece. One option I may have is to separate the parcels and sell the standalone ADU as its own SFH (which I am not banking on at all).

I will touch base with real estate agents and get their thoughts. 

I am clearly trying to challenge myself to not make a mistake here. I am happy to take on risk but want to walk wide open into it (which you are helping me with). 


Really appreciate all the thoughts and of course would love to hear more. 

@Dan H. this is amazing - really appreciate it. the unit will be more attractive than the current 2 duplex units and the less attractive unit (downstairs) currently rents for $5k and is smaller than the ADU. So I am very confident about the rent (likely higher when I look at comparable objects).

What is your logic to get to the low value of the addition? A triplex tw streets over was sold at $1050 per sqft. Assuming the ADU value / sqft is discounted by 50% (which I would say is too high), then I would still have a positive equity position even if I pay up to $500k for the construction.

One alternative way to look at it: Considering return on capital and assuming your 80% LTV, would put me at a ~$100k cash investment, with your last scenario of 482 / month cash flow would give me a roughly 6% return on my cash.

Really appreciate your thought partnership here. 

all great points @Dan H. @Amit M.

I am trying to find reasons why this doesnt work :) 

I definitely still need to get a better handle on the cost. but even at $400-500 per sqft I should be in the green. Of course my capital will not generate any return for a while given that these projects can be quite a while to be completed. 

The back is currently just parking. No useful space and I am aiming to preserve parking. Privacy is a fair point but its already a Duplex and structures in that area are built very close to each other (neighboring properties). The actual construction and likely lost rent is the biggest drag on the financials (in my POV). I would definitely have to hold the property for a while. I currently live in one of the units which is making it a bit easier on the finances. 

What else may make this a terrible investment? 

Quote from @Dan H.:

I have looked at dozens of underwritings of ADU additions and feel adding a single ADU is typically a horrendous RE investment. There is a long list of reasons it is typically a poor investment (in spite of what ADU vendors state which is often absurd such as values based on NOI), but the biggest is likely the ADU typically adds significantly less value than the costs to add the ADU resulting in an initial negative equity position.

By the way I am a partner on an effort adding 8 ADUs locally. At this point I believe I will be fortunate to recover my investment. Note adding ADUs typically has better numbers by far than adding a single ADU.

Here is a list of why adding a single ADU in single family zoned areas in my CA market is typically a poor RE investment:
1) The value added by the ADU addition is often significantly less than the cost of adding the ADU. Search the BP for ADU appraisals to encounter numerous examples. This creates a negative initial position. This negative position can consume years of cash flow to recover. Make sure you know the value the ADU will add to the property before building the ADU.
2) the financing on an ADU is typically far worse than for initial investment property acquisition or is often not leveraged by the ADU (HELOC, cash out refi, etc). Leverage magnifies return.
3) The effort involved in adding an ADU is comparable or larger than a rehab associated with a BRRRR. However if I do a BRRRR I can achieve infinite return by extracting all of my investment. Due to item 1, adding an ADU can require years to start achieving any return (once the accumulated cash flow recovers the initial negative position).
4) Adding an ADU is a slow process. It can take a year or more to complete an ADU. During this time you are not generating any return from the money invested in the ADU. This amounts to lost opportunity because if you had purchased RE, at the closing it can start producing return.
5) ADUs detract from the existing structure whether this is privacy, a garage, or just yard space.
6) this is related to number 1, but there are many more buyers looking to purchase homes for their family than there are RE investors looking to purchase small unit count properties. This may affect value or time required to sell.
7) Adding an ADU does not make the property a duplex. For example in many jurisdictions I can STR units in a duplex but cannot STR an ADU (some jurisdictions will let you STR if you owner occupy). Duplex have different zoning that may permit additional units. Duplex can always add additional units via the ADU laws.
8) Related to number 1, purchasing a property with an existing ADU is cheaper than buying a property and adding an ADU. Why add an ADU if it can be purchased cheaper?
9) adding multiple ADUs or adding an ADU to a quad looses F/F conventional financing. This reduces exit options and affects the value.
10) Small number of small units is the most expensive residential development there is. This implies residential units can be built at lower costs and provide better return than building a single ADU.
11) adding an ADU to SFH can make the SFH fall under rent control. In CA currently only MF properties are rent controlled. If the house is older than 15 years old and an ADU is added, it can become rent controlled. Rent control laws are market specific. Make sure you know the impact that adding an ADU will have on any rent control.
12) investors seldom include the land value in the overall ADU costs. The reality is the land has value.

Good luck


Great post!

What about the following scenario... existing duplex, enough space in the back to build a 1200 sqft ADU (2 stories). Location is Venice Beach. 1200 sqft stand-alone structures go for easily $6k a month. Current duplex, each unit is at roughly 1000 sqft and generates rent of $5 and $5.5k per month.

Doing very basic math, building an ADU will be a good investment even if it costs +$0.5M.

Would love your thoughts on what looks like a bad deal about this!

Post: Add value through ADU conversion

Marco WernerPosted
  • Posts 12
  • Votes 0
Quote from @Alecia Loveless:

@Marco Werner Be sure to analyze the total cost for building the ADU vs. the amount of rent you can get.

I was looking at doing a garage conversion and found the estimated cost of about $100,000 would be only returning a rental rate of $900/month.

Instead I have decided to add some extra electrical outlets and put in lights and rent it as a workshop. The cost for this will be about $8000 vs the ability to get $500/month in rent which is a much better option.

I also agree with the other post on comparing actual MLS sales that have ADUs close to your area vs the cost of the addition.


 Thank you for the input - love your idea. I am looking at around $400k but also looking to add around 1000 sqft and preserving the 2 car garage. 

Post: Add value through ADU conversion

Marco WernerPosted
  • Posts 12
  • Votes 0
Quote from @Dan H.:

ADU in sf areas of San Diego are seldom getting values from appraisers over $100k. This is n spite of it costing much more than that to add an ADU.

Look for comps of properties sold with an ADU then look for comps comparable to the house without the ADU. That will show you how the market values the ADU. If you cannot find at least 3 comp properties with an ADU, then be prepared for a horrendous valuation (<=$100k).

It s my view ADU additions in So Cal are one of the worse RE investments especially in SF areas. Here is a list of reasons:

1) The value added by the ADU addition is often significantly less than the cost of adding the ADU. Search the BP for ADU appraisals to encounter numerous examples. This creates a negative initial position. This negative position can consume years of cash flow to recover. Make sure you know the value the ADU will add to the property before building the ADU.
2) the financing on an ADU is typically far worse than for initial investment property acquisition or is often not leveraged (HELOC, cash out refi, etc). Leverage magnifies return.
3) The effort involved in adding an ADU is comparable or larger than a rehab associated with a BRRRR. However if I do a BRRRR I can achieve infinite return by extracting all of my investment. Due to item 1, adding an ADU can require years to start achieving any return (once the accumulated cash flow recovers the initial negative position).
4) Adding an ADU is a slow process. It can take a year or more to complete an ADU. During this time you are not generating any return from the money invested in the ADU. This amounts to lost opportunity because if you had purchased RE, at the closing it can start producing return.
5) ADUs detract from the existing structure whether this is privacy, a garage, or just yard space.
6) this is related to number 1, but there are many more buyers looking to purchase homes for their family than there are RE investors looking to purchase small unit count properties. This may affect value or time required to sell.
7) Adding an ADU does not make the property a duplex. For example in many jurisdictions I can STR units in a duplex but cannot STR an ADU (some jurisdictions will let you STR if you owner occupy). Duplex have different zoning that may permit additional units. Duplex can always add additional units via the ADU laws.
8) Related to number 1, purchasing a property with an existing ADU is cheaper than buying a property and adding an ADU. Why add an ADU if it can be purchased cheaper?
9) adding multiple ADUs or adding an ADU to a quad looses F/F conventional financing.  This reduces exit options and affects the value.  
10) Small number of small units is the most expensive residential development there is.  This implies residential units can be built at lower costs and provide better return. 

Good luck 


 Thanks so much for the thoughtful post! 

Reactions to your points - would love your feedback given you are clearly very experienced in this. 

1. There are properties in the direct area where the ADU sqft was simply added to the total sqft and was sold with a similar price per sqft to other properties in the area (ranging in the $700-800 ppsf). Actually, I haven't found a single one where the ADU lead to a meaningful discount.

2. The bank I am working with would provide a construction loan with 3/8 points higher than the original mortgage to buy the property. So very attractive financing? I would then refi after construction is complete to a "regular" loan.

3 + 4. I think these are the biggest risks I am facing since there are powerlines in the proximity. 

5. / 6. / 7. The property is already a duplex (i.e., it has 2 units). The ADU would be the 3rd unit and the largest and most attractive one out of the 3 (also preserving the 2 garage spots). To be clear, this is not a single-family home which would lose its benefit of being a single-family home)

8. If I could find a good one I would ;) but havent found anything that is cheaper since the sqft of building is much lower than what it sells for (at least what I have seen in the areas I am looking). 

9. It's a duplex so dont think this applies here. 

10. Probably right, aiming for 1000 sqft livable space so not super tiny but still your point probably holds. 


Steady state, the property should generate about $12-13K in rental income monthly (I will likely live in the ADU to begin with, which would reduce the income of course). At a ticket price of $2M (purchase + ADU build). Doesn't look terrible for one of the more attractive neighborhoods in LA?

Would love your thoughts!

I have a similar question. Did you come up with next steps?

Post: Construction near power lines

Marco WernerPosted
  • Posts 12
  • Votes 0

Hi all, 

I am looking to buy a property where I want to construct a 3-story ADU in the back of the property (replacing a garage).

The challenge I am running into is that there is a power line right behind the garage. How do I best figure out what is feasible in terms of clearance and its impact on the ADU construction? I have checked the maps of the department of power and water and the location of the power line is highly inaccurate. The maps show the power lines on top of the garage but I visited the site and they are behind the garage (although very close).

I won't go through with the deal if I cannot add at least 1000 sqft through the ADU construction.

Would love your thoughts on how I can best get clarity on this before making an offer or at least before closing. 

Post: Add value through ADU conversion

Marco WernerPosted
  • Posts 12
  • Votes 0

Hi all, 

I am looking at a duplex (1500 sqft), which has a large detached garage (~700 sqft floor area). 

I am thinking of adding 2 stories on top of the garage (essentially rebuilding the garage) and adding north of 1000 sqft livable space. The property is in LA and I am trying to think through how much value I am adding to the property. 

Is it fair to assume that the added sqft from the ADU conversion adds value to the property? Should I apply the simple math of average price per sqft in the area times the added sqft? Minus potentially a small discount since it's an ADU? The bank I have been talking to for the loan / construction loan seems to be willing to apply that logic.

Would love your thoughts!

Post: Napkin math - house hacking investment

Marco WernerPosted
  • Posts 12
  • Votes 0

I came up with this list of value and cost drivers. 

Any thoughts?

Value drivers:

  1. - Rental Income: Income from renting out units.
  2. - Saved Rent: Savings on rent you would otherwise pay for own living space.
  3. - Tax Benefits from Rental Activity:
    • -- Depreciation: Deduction of a portion of the property's cost over time.
    • -- Mortgage Interest: Deduction of interest expense on the rented portion.
  4. - Personal Income Tax Reduction:
    • -- Interest Deduction: Deduction of mortgage interest on personal tax return, subject to limits.
  5. - Growth in Rents: Increases in rental income over time.
  6. - Equity Build-Up: Equity gained from mortgage principal repayment.
  7. - Growth in Equity: Increase in property value over time.

Cost drivers:

  1. - Mortgage Principal Repayment: Part of the mortgage payment that goes towards paying off the loan.
  2. - Interest Payments: Interest portion of the mortgage.
  3. - Maintenance: Regular property upkeep costs.
  4. - Vacancy: Loss of income during periods when units are unoccupied.
  5. - Utilities / Other Expenses: Utility costs, possibly including shared utilities.
  6. - CapEx Reserves: Savings for future capital expenditures (e.g., roof replacement).
  7. - Insurance: Property insurance costs.
  8. - Property Taxes: Annual taxes on property value.
  9. - Closing Costs: Expenses incurred during the property buying process.