All Forum Posts by: Chris Clothier

K. Marie Poe - My apologies for getting your background mixed up! over time I have become so familiar with so many people on here and I try to be respectful and remember certain things, but I was mixed up no that one.

I want to tell you that one paragraph in your post was really, really good and may be the best explanation I have heard yet about push back on education.

"I think the main objection you are seeing to what seem like high prices for REI education and mentorship is that it is sold to people who often can't judge its value. They can't know what they don't know. Just like when someone hears that they need a new transmission for a Honda Civic, and believe the mechanic who says it can't be done for the less than $8K. So, some may think $25K is a better REI course or mentorship than a $2500 course based on it's high cost and all the doo-dads and things that are included. Stupid but true."

I can respect that and I agree with that opinion. Some may think I am a big proponent of buying Fortune Builders or buying education. I am neither. I simply hate how quickly people can become dismissive of things that they do not know about. When I read about people attending an event and then posting that they hated it and think it is a rip-off - what can you say? They did their homework and reached their conclusion. But the same thing should be said for the person who attended and decided to buy.

Again, I really liked what you posted.

J Scott - you are right and I agree with many of your points, but I have just learned from experience that some thrive in a coaching environment. But I do agree with you that not everyone who buys it needs it and many probably never give themselves a chance to succeed or fail first. David Beard - I really liked something you said in your post about their being a certain beauty to figuring it out through networking, research and OTJ training. I thought that was really well put and I am a person that really values teaching myself that way. However, I think that is rare. I think there are a great many more people who need a whole lot more than that to find success as a real estate investor. That does not mean go out and buy a $25,000 program. But for some, that is what they are going to do because they identify with that course as the best solution for them.

Also, I don't know about your percentages (90%), but again, only someone naive would say that what you described is not done by investors. I have had conversations with investors through the years that have spent over a hundred thousand dollars from IRA's and savings accounts searching for the "answer". Often they are not honest with themselves that the answer is not out there somewhere.

All very good and valid points Joel.

K. Marie Poe - No, coaching and mentoring individual investors is not part of Memphis Invest or my business. I have an older brother, Kent Clothier, Jr. and I am very biased about him and his abilities as a speaker, coach and motivator. Kent has his own company called REI Marketing that he sells investment programs and he also owns the 1-800-Sell_Now vanity number and re-licenses that to other investors. But, his company is separate from Memphis Invest and that is not part of my business and doesn't effect my decision making when it comes to commenting on a topic like coaching and mentoring. I have met plenty of educators that I would not spend money with or recommend. There are plenty of programs out there including plenty of $39 "weekend" education functions offered by local REIA's that I do not think will meet my needs or the needs of other investors. Fortune Builders however I have recommended to plenty of investors and getting-started investors who have asked my opinion including a family member.

As for the cost of the program. I believe that each of us gets to set what their own time and effort is worth. I have no problem with Fortune Builders saying that the time and effort they spent in developing their program and the on-going efforts they put into teaching it are worth $25,000. Every investor who decides yes or no when it comes time to pay that price gets to decide if paying that amount - that the other person has set - is worth it to them.

I find it interesting that there are so many parallels in real estate to this discussion. Whether it is selling property or providing a service, each of us gets to set what price we want for that home or service. The seller sets the price, the buyer sets the market by being willing to pay the price. It does not really matter that someone else thinks it is over priced. If the buyer wants it and it meets their needs - they will buy it.

I may be wrong, but I thought that you were a property manager in your area. I apologize if that were not correct, but I am pretty sure that if you are, you get to set what your rates are for your service just like I get to do with mine. Again, I could be wrong, but I cannot believe that you would lower your price for your service just because someone who believed that every investor should self manage told you that your prices were too high. To question if $25,000 is worth it for the program would mean you should question every penny you pay - for a table lamp, a piece of art, a dinner with your family, a car, a vacation...on and on and on. In each of those scenarios, there are cheap options and then there are expensive options. What may seem ridiculously over priced to one person may be a great value to another. Every decision we make usually has an alternative that may be more or less expensive. Lucky for each of us, the seller sets the value of what they have and we - the consumer - gets to set the market. Don't buy it - and it disappears.

I am not a student of theirs so I will leave it to others to comment on their success or failure with the program. I didn't mean to take the conversation that direction, but it bothers me when people start to question the value of others time and effort when they forget that each of us gets to determine the value of our work. At least, I should say that many of us are lucky enough to determine that value. So, in my opinion, while many of us may not be willing to pay that price for anything, they are free to set their prices and succeed or fail as business people. If there is a market for it and the product is good, they will succeed regardless if you or I think it is overpriced.

J Scott - You know I have a ton of respect for you and am seriously looking forward to hanging out again and learning what you have been up to since the last BP Summit. But on this issue, I think there are too many simplistic points of view that boil it down to "you can get it all for free". Sean Brennan, I have to say that in my opinion simply saying find an investor and add value and they will help you is not reality for a vast majority of investors.

I love this site and am a huge advocate for Bigger Pockets, but the idea that every investor can get every thing they need for free or right on this site is not true. People do not work that way. That is why some people are successful in anything they do in life and others are not. Some people rise to the executive level and others do not. We all work, think, act, learn and respond differently and to think that one solution like a website or a REIA or finding a mentor investor is the answer for everyone is just not reality.

J Scott, after having met you and spoken with you and read so many of your responses on here, I believe that you are the type of person that was going to be successful no matter which route you took. I personally know other investors who share many of your personality traits and they chose a different path. Many of them chose to hire a coach or go through a coaching program in order to shorten the learning curve or to avoid the possibility of real life experience and possible failure as a learning tool. Nothing wrong with either path. They are just different and what works for one investor will not always work for another.

There are two things I have always said in these forums.

1. I personally know the three owners of this company and have done business not only with them, but also their family members, their employees and their clients. I have known them for four years and I believe their heart of hearts is in the right place. They will never achieve 100% success (meaning every client becomes a wildly successful investor), but they put forth a lot of time and effort to provide every opportunity and ounce of value they can for each dollar someone pays.

2. Every dollar spent by an investor is wasted if they do not put forth the effort to learn and grow and get started as an active investor. The amount of money does not matter - whether it is $25 or $25,000 - it is wasted if you do not take action as an investor. That should be the real argument, in my opinion, against buying into any coaching program including Fortune Builders. If you are looking for a club to say you are a part of, save your money. If you want to be successful and feel that a program like this meets your learning style and your personality, then go for it.

Mehran Kamari -

You say the property is in the Cleveland, Ohio area. Have you invested there before? How is the economy in the area and not just Cleveland but the surrounding area as well. Are you planning on holding this property for longer than 5-7 years? What is the areas economic forecast going forward and beyond that time period?

I can tell you from looking at the numbers that the property looks fine, but that is all we are looking at. I am a long-term buy & hold investor and I buy in 4 cities today so I don't mind buying away from home. It does not appear that you mind buying away from home either. So, my answer is, if you have done your homework on the area and you are very comfortable with your partners in the Cleveland area who will be assisting you with the operation of your property, then go for it. If you do not have a good feel for the questions above, do a little more due diligence on the area and team. For me, the property itself is always the last thing I look at in an area before I buy. I like to answer other economic and team oriented questions first.

That is exactly what we do.

And yes you are correct, the presumption has always been that over time you develop a profitable business, but as I noted above, our Dallas, TX. property management company is a stand alone unit and it turned a profit in less than a year. That is with us hiring the staff to do everything and us simply owning the company. My point was to kind of piggy back on David Beard's comments. A good, run company where the owners and the employees enjoy what they are doing can be profitable. You cannot do all the crazy things that many property management companies have been guilty of doing and expect to grow and remain as a successful company. You have to operate with a need to provide great service and then you can absolutely build a profitable property management business.

This is one of those topics like so many others where there are always strong opinions one way or the other, but very few that can back it up with experience and "first hand" knowledge and not just coffee talk from the local REIA. Property management is something i happen to think my families company does very well. If it is set up properly, managed properly and operates for the right reason - wait, come to think of it, isn't that a description of the way any well-run business should operate?

We manage 1700 homes in two cities and add between 40 and 45 homes a month to the management rolls. We only offer the service to our clients following much of the model that David Beard described above and we offer a white labeling of our management services to one other small company. He adds about 100 properties a year.

Just like any other business from a taco stand to a hair salon to being a Realtor, if you know what you are doing, have a good business plan, provide a needed service at a good value...you can make money. As far as what is critical mass for making a profit? We started our management company in Dallas in 2012, are currently managing just under 60 properties and are already in the black.

Many people simply do not want to even consider what it would be like to manage properties for others. I think Joel Owens even says he was not put on this earth to manage property. But for others, if you have the right model and can provide a needed service, there is no reason you cannot make money and operate a very, very profitable business. Property management can be very profitable if done correctly and that profitability has nothing to do with the coffee talk from above like cutting staff, reducing expenses and churning through maintenance bills. Does that stuff happen? Yes it does. Do the best companies in the business do it? This one doesn't - I can't speak for the rest.

When a person really desires something, all the universe conspires to help that person to realize his dream.

Paulo Coelho

Jason Burton -

I liked your comment above. You are correct that this may be one of if not the best site you could have stumbled across. There are a great group of people on this site and you will see that there are definitely those that are pro investing actively and those that are pro investing passively. Either way, take your time without causing yourself to never take action. Just do your homework and get yourself to the most comfortable point you can be before investing recognizing that no matter what you do, there is always risk.

All the best to you as you get started!

Chris