All Forum Posts by: Sean OToole

@Briana Dunne find a couple of properties that you know are triplexes in your area, and then use Listsource to pull them specifically with all the details. You should then be able to use that to see how your county has classified them, and then use that knowledge to find the rest. Specifically look at property type, unit count, and county land use, and you should find your answer. Some combination of those should work. The other suggestions above about using the assessor, Realtor's, etc, will all run into the same issue as you had on Listsource, as I'm quite certain the underlying issue is how the assessor has classified those properties, not the vendor you chose.

Mortgage late leads are available from the credit vendors (Equifax, Experian, Trans Union) and some resellers, however, since it is credit data it comes with a lot of requirements in how you use them.  We've found that if you use them legally, they get zero response rate. We don't believe in selling customers things that give them zero response rate when used legally, so we don't offer them.

We do offer vacancy data (the postal service allows it to be offered for the sole purpose of avoiding mailing to vacant properties, thereby reducing mailing costs). You can use that vacancy data with any of our other 200 criteria - equity, non-owner occ, etc.

We offer phone numbers, so no reason to pay a VA to skip trace.

Already solved above, but just to provide a little bit of extra detail... most list services will provide two addresses - 1) the situs address (the address of the property, and 2) the owner mailing address (where the tax bill is sent). You pretty much always want to use the later when mailing owners - absentee or not.

Fun fact - most "absentee" owner lists are created by simply comparing these two addresses and assuming the owner is absentee if they are different. Note that while this is a good approximation, you'll find quite a few folks actually aren't absentee - but perhaps just have their mail go to their office, their accountant, or perhaps a caregivers that takes care of their bills. More advanced providers may also take into account homeowner tax exemptions when determining who is or is not absentee, but those only apply in some states, like CA. I always recommend taking a look at your absentee list - especially in small rural areas - because sometimes you may see an unusually high number of absentee owners, when in fact, it is just because folks in that town all use post office boxes.

@Account Closed the three important dates on the notice of default are 1) notice recording date - the date the foreclosure notice was recorded at the county (I believe that is the foreclose recording date above), 2) default date - this is the date on which the loan went into default, typically the due date of the first missed payment, and 3) mortgage recording date - the date the mortgage that is in default was originally recorded (perhaps the foreclose original recording date above - you can tell as it will be years earlier. 

As for the other dates you listed, you'd need to inquire with Listsource, but I believe they are simply tracking dates - for example recent added date is perhaps the date they added it to their database.

@Andy Mirza I couldn't agree more. Has been on my to-do list for quite some time. We've got the data and are in the process of adding it to our user interface. Feel free to PM me if you would like a preview before we release it later this year.

@Khenkis K. - there seems to be confusion in this thread between public records data, and private data. The firms you mention will have public records data on notes (actually the deed of trust or mortgage that is recorded to secure the note). Whereas private sellers of notes may be able to offer non-recorded private information in some circumstances.

I believe @Sam Shueh and @Christopher Winkler think you are asking for the later non-recorded data, and if so, it is likely you'll never build a good data set on which to turn ai loose, and whatever data you do acquire will be through hard earned relationships with note sellers, as they mention.

If you are, however, just looking for public records data, then all the sources your mentioned will offer roughly the same data. The primary limitation being what data is actually recorded. For example, you will typically find interest rate date on adjustable rate mortgages, thanks to the requirements for adjustable rate riders. At the same time you typically will NOT find rates for fixed rate mortgages.

Since you specifically mention "private" notes, I personally believe public records are what you actually want, and the best opportunity - why buy stuff other buyers or servicers don't want when you can go directly to the source? To find out what data is available from public records you can a) ask various vendors like the one's you mentioned, or b) go pull some mortgage or deed of trust documents in the area you are interested in, read them and see for yourself what they offer. I recommend the later regardless as you'll then be able to judge how complete each vendors offering is compared to the data actually available.

Unfortunately, while we are working to expand to your area, we have not yet done this analysis for GA.

@Jamier Hughes it is very likely that your list is not the problem with not getting calls back. More likely are the following two things:

1. Unrealistic expectations. 1-2 calls per 100 pieces of mail would be a good response for someone fairly new to direct mail marketing. Expert direct mail marketers might reach as high as 4-5 - that would be an excellent response rate. No idea what you think a "good amount" is, but if on your first attempt you got anything more that 1 per 100 you did great.

2. Poor messaging. If you didn't actually get a good response based on realistic expectations, then your problem is far more likely what you said in your direct mail - the message - rather than your list. Too many new investors send the same "I buy houses" yellow letters, to exactly the same lists. How anyone expects any kind of response from that is beyond me. Crafting a good message, that actually results in a well qualified response is a lot of work. I just outlined the steps I take to do that here: https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/93/topics/601..., it's the second half of the post.

That's not to say list quality doesn't matter, but a provider like ListSource is going to be good enough.

One additional tip - you can make your lists a lot more powerful by "segmenting" them. So for example if you have 5000 non-owner occupied homes you want to target. Divide them up in various ways - by age of owner, length of ownership, presence of children, price range, equity, etc. Doing so allows you to write messages that are more specific and more applicable to the owner. By being more targeted with both your list and your message, your results will improve.

Hope that helps.

Sean

@Joe Yobaccio

1. Equity - we developed our own equity models a decade ago, and to my knowledge were the first to offer them to investors, though I think Listsource launched their's not long after. I believe our equity models are still the best in the industry, as we take a number of things into account that others don't. Still, they aren't perfect - for example there is the no way to know the open balance on a HELOC without access to credit data, and access to that for this purpose isn't allowed by law.

2. Divorces - we don't collect divorce filings. I have yet to meet a real investor who has succeeded pursuing these, until I do I have no plan to waste my time on them. A few simple reality about divorces: 1) often one of the two ends up with the property, 2) money usually gets tight as they move from one household to two, so good luck getting a deal, they'll squeeze every penny out, and 3) in serious disputes the attorneys, not the owners, pick the real estate agent and oversee the sale.

3. Tax default - the counties are really good about posting these, and most of the sales are now online. We have a LOT of customers that use us to do their property research and find the owners on these, but we don't collect them directly. I know many large, multi-state, tax default buyers, and not a single one buy's this data from a third party, or sees much value in us doing it for them. Too easy to do directly.

4. FLBO - We offered this data for about 5 years. In those 5 years I have exactly ZERO examples of the data leading to a great deal for one of our customers. After surveying customers we dropped it, and used the money on other features.

5. FSBO - Yes these folks want out of their property, but they want every dollar for themselves, to the point they aren't even willing to pay a realtor. Is there maybe one in hundred that mis-values their property, perhaps. But again, I know exactly zero successful investors who pursue these. Easy data for us to get and add to the platform, so if I'm wrong I'd love to hear it.

6. Empty nesters - yes we do this, and about 1000 variations of this.

7. Evictions - I think this one is interesting. I haven't yet found a reliable data source. Like probate and divorce the data on these that is available tends to not be very good, though some vendors mistakenly still tout it as such. For me to offer data it needs to be timely enough to actually have a chance of doing a deal, and accurate enough to not waste my customers time.

8. Probate / Death Certificate - these are just a straight up stupid way to go after this opportunity. If you want to chase this path, then you want Obituaries. Obituaries are typically posted in the local paper weeks or months before you can get either of these. This is another one like Tax, where I believe we are the most popular product in the market even though we don't offer the data directly. Simply look at the obits, and do a name search in PropertyRadar, as you find them add them to a list and start whatever marketing campaign you desire. Takes just a few minutes a day.

9. Non-Owner Occ - we do this better than anyone. We not only give you non-owner occ, but variations on it like whether the owner is in county, or in state. Plus you can combine it with things like Vacancy, or any of our 200 other criteria.

Be careful not to get caught up in vendors pushing specific life events as get rich quick schemes. We're fortunate to have most of the long term successful investors, and as such don't have to rely on constantly attracting noob's with those kind of false claims. Here is what I know works:

1. Pick a thesis around which you think an owner would be willing to sell their house at the discount you desire. You'll find hundreds of ideas here on Bigger Pockets - but just know that what worked awesome for the guy in Utah, probably is NOT what is going to work awesome in your neighborhood. My suggesting on this, is to pick a thesis where you can bring authentic value to the table when speaking to the owner. If you are going to pursue obits/probate, then become an expert in everything about that - be able to help answer their questions about the process, help them find an attorney, help them with arranging services for their loved one, learn how to lend money to help them pay for expenses through the process and prior to a sale, etc. Those are the guys who do well. You'll never be successful just mass mailing "I buy houses".

2. Learn your market, ideally by knocking on doors. Go talk to folks that are on your list, before even trying to buy anything. For a new list, I'll offer folks a $50 or $100 gift card (from my pocket), if they'll give me 30 minutes of their time. I then ask them every question I can think of about their situation, whether or not they'd sell, if they would why, what they would want out of the deal, what they think their home is worth, what discount they'd take for various things - like moving whenever they want, or not having to clean the place up, or not having to evict the tenant, or whatever. I'm NOT in sales mode when I do this, and won't even offer to buy their home unless they specifically ask. Also, while you are there BE SURE to ask if they get any direct mail from investors, and collect as much of it as you can - it's a great way to check out the competition. I'll even offer them more $ if they'll collect it for me over a period of time. Pretty good chance your thesis will change or be eliminated in this step, that's ok, it's part of the deal. Real estate investing is hard work, not a get rich quick scheme.

3. Test your thesis. From 2, I'll put together a pitch, and then try it out. Always best to start in person, so door knocking is still ideal at this stage. This is where perseverance makes all the difference. Most successful investors know that it takes a lot of no's, to get a yes. If you think you have a really good thesis, don't be afraid to knock 100 doors at this stage. Listen to feedback, try small variations, refine until you find what works.

4. Start to scale. Once things start to work in 3, then switch to calling. It's far more efficient and you can reach a lot more people. That said, you don't get the benefit of body language and it's easier for folks to not answer or just hang up. So this often takes more refinement and some changes from what worked in 3.

5. Go big. Once you have your message really dialed from 3 and 4, direct mail can help you scale. This is the most efficient way to reach a large number of people, but your message has to be absolutely perfect, or you will be literally throwing money into the trash. Too many investors jump straight to this step resulting in homeowners getting a bunch of nearly identical yellow letters that offer nothing unique that will get that owner to actually call.

If you take nothing else away from this long post, please know that the unique value you bring to the owner, and how good your are at explaining that to them (the message) is FAR MORE IMPORTANT then the list you choose.

Hi @Jose Martinez, thanks for being a customer. The old rule of thumb is that you want at least 30% equity to give you room for repairs, holding costs, sales costs while still earning a profit. I personally think that is true as a relative value in any market. That said, I will seek higher margins for properties that are more expensive within that market, as risk increases as you move to properties fewer buyers in that market can afford.

@Joe Yobaccio - recorder info is not "pretty available online" anywhere in the US. Even in states that allow you to download document images for free (ie not CA), you still can not do things like search for all properties with a certain value, equity, lender, CLTV, nor about 150 other criteria. I would actually like to see public record data be freely available from counties in a usable form, but that simply is no where close to true today.