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All Forum Posts by: Steve K.

Steve K. has started 29 posts and replied 2813 times.

Post: Tell Me Why My Discount Brokerage Idea Is Bad: Calling All Agents

Steve K.#1 Real Estate Agent ContributorPosted
  • Realtor
  • Boulder, CO
  • Posts 2,917
  • Votes 5,197
Quote from @James Kerson:

@John Warren one other note. As a landlord, sometimes I have prospective tenants apply before they’ve set foot on the premises. Usually, they live out of town and want to narrow their housing options before visiting. This is probably common among buyer prospects, too. Obtaining valid ID and proof of income isn’t hard; for buyer prospects, swap proof of income for a pre-approval letter and/or proof of funds. As for security in occupied houses, I don’t have a definite solution - it’s just that opening doors is a low-value task that a busy buyer’s agent probably shouldn’t want to handle.

Any decent listing agent will make sure a buyer has at least visited the property before submitting an offer, otherwise their chances of backing out during their inspection/ due diligence window is much higher. So no, this is not typical or a recommended way of doing business. Most offers from people who haven’t even toured the property are low-ballers, scammers. Wholesalers, time wasters etc. I would recommend selling a property or two and gaining a basic understanding of the business before starting a brokerage. Sorry, but you said to be blunt! Most of your assumptions on how the business works are incorrect. Any new business idea should solve a problem that other existing businesses haven’t anlready addressed IMO, if they plan to be successful. 

Post: Refusing a Tenant Prospect Before Showing/Application

Steve K.#1 Real Estate Agent ContributorPosted
  • Realtor
  • Boulder, CO
  • Posts 2,917
  • Votes 5,197
Quote from @David Spurlock:
Quote from @Steve K.:
Quote from @David Spurlock:
Quote from @Steve K.:
Quote from @David Spurlock:

Hey @Fareen E.,

You've gotten a lot of feedback here saying you are in the clear to decline them. However, I would disagree. I do the majority of my leasing on Facebook and Zillow and I never ask for an ID. You need to think about this from the tenant's perspective. While Facebook Marketplace isn't the sketchiest site (craigslist), I personally would never give my ID across it. If the only indication that he is difficult is not wanting to send his ID to a stranger on Facebook, I wouldn't blame him. 

You are more than welcome to decline a showing because he is not comfortable with your requirements, but you are not allowed to discourage someone from applying to your apartment. That is an easy way to get a Fair Housing Violation case.


Lastly, why do you care who is looking at the property? When they apply is when you should confirm their identity. 


 Asking for ID as a requirement to show a rental is not a fair housing violation, and there are plenty of reasons why a landlord should care who is looking at their property, theft and their own personal safety being the first 2 that spring to mind, followed closely by not wanting to waster their time. If someone isn’t willing to provide ID, they are not a serious applicant and possibly a scammer, so it’s a good screening tool to weed out the tire-kickers and sketch balls. My PM asks for ID as step #1 for these reasons. 

@Steve K. Please take a minute to reread what I wrote. You can deny a showing, but you cannot prevent/discourage someone from applying. That would be a fair housing violation. 

"there are plenty of reasons why a landlord should care who is looking at their property, theft and their own personal safety being the first 2 that spring to mind, followed closely by not wanting to waste their time" These are valid reasons but depend greatly on your market and who is showing the property. 

Theft - No one is going to steal while you are there. Someone planning on stealing anything of worth is going to do it while you are gone. You could argue that they are using the tour to scope out the building. However, a simple security system would deter this.

Personal Safety -  I assume you are using their ID to run a background check and deciding if their history affects your safety, correct?

Wasting Time - @Fareen E. I've found this to be super helpful: When someone inquires about the property Thank them and Send them the pre-requirements (Income, credit, no evictions) and ask if they meet them. The vast majority of them will out themselves and you can decline to show the property. 


Oh boy. First day on the job? They don’t steal in front of you, they come back later and steal. Security systems are easily outsmarted, that’s the point of the initial visit, to case the joint. Or they run a scam where they pretend to be the landlord and steal prospective tenants security deposits. Or any number of other scams. Asking for ID for a showing is a pro move. You should be doing this IMO. There’s no risk and all reward because if somebody can’t provide ID, they’re not going to be able to rent from me anyway. 


 Again, you're repeating what I have said. Sounds like you have a pretty poor security system.

Even with a good security system, having a tenant provide ID is the first step in a professional screening process. It would be great if security systems stopped all crimes, but they don’t. 

Post: Refusing a Tenant Prospect Before Showing/Application

Steve K.#1 Real Estate Agent ContributorPosted
  • Realtor
  • Boulder, CO
  • Posts 2,917
  • Votes 5,197
Quote from @David Spurlock:
Quote from @Steve K.:
Quote from @David Spurlock:

Hey @Fareen E.,

You've gotten a lot of feedback here saying you are in the clear to decline them. However, I would disagree. I do the majority of my leasing on Facebook and Zillow and I never ask for an ID. You need to think about this from the tenant's perspective. While Facebook Marketplace isn't the sketchiest site (craigslist), I personally would never give my ID across it. If the only indication that he is difficult is not wanting to send his ID to a stranger on Facebook, I wouldn't blame him. 

You are more than welcome to decline a showing because he is not comfortable with your requirements, but you are not allowed to discourage someone from applying to your apartment. That is an easy way to get a Fair Housing Violation case.


Lastly, why do you care who is looking at the property? When they apply is when you should confirm their identity. 


 Asking for ID as a requirement to show a rental is not a fair housing violation, and there are plenty of reasons why a landlord should care who is looking at their property, theft and their own personal safety being the first 2 that spring to mind, followed closely by not wanting to waster their time. If someone isn’t willing to provide ID, they are not a serious applicant and possibly a scammer, so it’s a good screening tool to weed out the tire-kickers and sketch balls. My PM asks for ID as step #1 for these reasons. 

@Steve K. Please take a minute to reread what I wrote. You can deny a showing, but you cannot prevent/discourage someone from applying. That would be a fair housing violation. 

"there are plenty of reasons why a landlord should care who is looking at their property, theft and their own personal safety being the first 2 that spring to mind, followed closely by not wanting to waste their time" These are valid reasons but depend greatly on your market and who is showing the property. 

Theft - No one is going to steal while you are there. Someone planning on stealing anything of worth is going to do it while you are gone. You could argue that they are using the tour to scope out the building. However, a simple security system would deter this.

Personal Safety -  I assume you are using their ID to run a background check and deciding if their history affects your safety, correct?

Wasting Time - @Fareen E. I've found this to be super helpful: When someone inquires about the property Thank them and Send them the pre-requirements (Income, credit, no evictions) and ask if they meet them. The vast majority of them will out themselves and you can decline to show the property. 


Oh boy. First day on the job? They don’t steal in front of you, they come back later and steal. Security systems are easily outsmarted, that’s the point of the initial visit, to case the joint. Or they run a scam where they pretend to be the landlord and steal prospective tenants security deposits. Or any number of other scams. Asking for ID for a showing is a pro move. You should be doing this IMO. There’s no risk and all reward because if somebody can’t provide ID, they’re not going to be able to rent from me anyway. 

Post: Tell Me Why My Discount Brokerage Idea Is Bad: Calling All Agents

Steve K.#1 Real Estate Agent ContributorPosted
  • Realtor
  • Boulder, CO
  • Posts 2,917
  • Votes 5,197
Quote from @James Kerson:

Let’s redirect the conversation. Assuming you could wave a wand and eliminate or change any existing practice, laws, and regulation pertaining to real estate transactions, what would you change, either for your own benefit as intermediaries or for the benefit of principals?

One thing I would change is that all of the security deposits being held by landlords are sitting in savings accounts or escrow, earning meager interest if anything. Somebody should create a way for that money to be invested and benefit the renter whose capital/ sunken investment it is. Affordable housing is always an issue as well. Down payment assistance/ a VC that partners with first time home buyers to provide a pathway to home ownership would be a welcome addition to the industry! 

Post: Tell Me Why My Discount Brokerage Idea Is Bad: Calling All Agents

Steve K.#1 Real Estate Agent ContributorPosted
  • Realtor
  • Boulder, CO
  • Posts 2,917
  • Votes 5,197
Quote from @James Kerson:

James, play along with me:

1. Why are U.S. real estate commissions more than 3x higher than in almost any other rich country? What is uniquely complicated about our real estate transactions to justify the higher commissions?

2. Quality of service is important, but why does the service have to be all-inclusive? There are many buyers and sellers of sufficient sophistication not to require at least some of the typical bundle of services. (I’d note that in many industries, even though people value service, they often go for the lowest price as long as service meets an acceptable minimal level - think of airlines or hotels.)

3. A few posters have commented that data-driven pricing doesn’t work. I’ll push back on this. Indeed, the zEstimates are quite imprecise; its algorithm is a mystery. But most pricing is a function of recent comps, adjusted for the subject property by size, condition of systems, and aesthetic qualities. Photo quality is important to drive traffic, and staging can improve photos and prospect appreciation during tours. 

My hypothesis is that a Venn diagram of high-sophistication principals and normal properties (however defined) would encompass 20-30% of SFR transactions. These deals don't really require bundled all-inclusive brokerage service, in my view. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.


 1. It is not accurate to say that US real estate commishes are 3x higher than any other rich country. In most other developed countries it is 3-5% total with various splits to buyer/seller (similar to expensive markets here where average is 4-5% total), plus they have 15-20% VAT in these other countries that gets absorbed into the deal. Check this out for reference: https://tranio.com/articles/real_estate_agents_commissions_i... also in a lot of these countries agents are not full service and attorneys (or "solicitors", "barristers" etc. varying names in different places) handle the contracting/paperwork which agents handle here, so those folks also need to be paid. In my experience in foreign countries, there is often less consumer protections/ no central MLS or licensing/ greater risk to the principals, much more red tape, and overall higher transactions costs than here so it's important to look at the whole picture not just the commish %. It's obviously a lot more complicated to compare the different business models, making the blanket statement "Us commishes are 3x higher" extremely flawed logic. I also agree with James about the legal component, our culture is more litigious than others but there's also less risk that a "lawyer" will run off with all the money here which I have experienced in other "rich" countries.

2. There are plenty of discount brokerages in the market now, you are basically copying their business model but adding more complexity and overhead expenses to what these companies are already doing. You won't be able to compete with them on pricing and will be crushed. 

3. You have to go inside the comps to understand how they compare to subject property, which is what competent agents and appraisers do. Robots can not go in the comps and compute how they compare to subject property. In addition to failing massively leading to Billion dollar losses for ibuyers, data-driven pricing tools have seriously harmed consumers and should be outlawed in my opinion. I've personally witnessed several intelligent people suffer financial harm because they trusted this info, didn't think they needed buyer representation, and overpaid by 6 figures.   

You should try working in the industry for a little while in order to better understand it before trying to recreate it! 

Post: Tell Me Why My Discount Brokerage Idea Is Bad: Calling All Agents

Steve K.#1 Real Estate Agent ContributorPosted
  • Realtor
  • Boulder, CO
  • Posts 2,917
  • Votes 5,197
Quote from @James Kerson:

It's understandable that this thread has touched a nerve. I’m proposing a radical reworking of how houses get bought and sold in the United States, and asking agents to comment on what would be major changes in how they work, who would compensate them, how, and how much. 

The end result I envision will be many fewer commission dollars paid and agents employed, but those remaining agents would be much more regularly employed, on an hourly and not a commission basis, paid to provide advice and nothing else. SFR transactions are generally fairly simple, and condos are not too much more complicated. Depending on the principal, a lesser or greater degree of professional advice is necessary, but most SFR transactions are similar in their mechanics. My brokerage would employ data-driven pricing guidance (hard to see how this would be materially different from MLS comp sheets; perhaps more accurate). It would hire photographers like traditional agents do, and would advise buyers and sellers, up to a predetermined number of hours, after which the advice would cost extra. This would disincentivize tire-kicking and over-pricing, I hope.

Whether my brokerage would work for sellers alone or for both buyers and sellers is a technical matter, an important one to be sure, but a technical one that can be overcome. Marcus & Millichap, the commercial brokerage, more or less exclusively functions as a listing agent or a dual agent. Are commercial buyers more sophisticated than residential ones? Maybe so, but I doubt that they’re less litigious. 

Likewise, I’d need to work out how prospects would tour properties safely, legally, and at minimal expense. I don’t have an easy answer, but if Uber made private cars taxis for hire, I’m sure this could be overcome, too. My guess is that there are inactive licensees who could be drafted to a new brokerage whose sole function would be to open doors, especially if those licensees are paid per-tour…like Uber drivers.


 1. Data-driven pricing does not work. Look at what happened to all of the ibuyers. Look at my street right now: the "zestimates" are off by hundreds of thousands on every single property. It doesn't work. Only local agents/real estate professionals who know the area house by house and can see, touch and smell the property can price a listing well, period. Literally my neighbor's house is off by $300k right now and it should be an easy one to price. 

2. If you're paying employees an hourly wage, you need to factor in payroll taxes, benefits, and overhead. Your all-in, total cost of labor is going to be around $75/hr if you are paying $50/hr. You'd probably have to provide a company car, insurance, E&O insurance, cell phone, and laptop/ tablet also. You can't expect quality licensed professionals to be willing to work for only $50/hr., especially if they're driving their own car, paying their own insurance, cell phone, continuing education/licensing costs etc. When I bill by the hour, I charge $350 in order to cover all of my expenses and make it worth my time. You'd need to be charging closer to $450/hr. and paying $350/hr. in order to have a viable business model IMO, which probably isn't much different than charging the typical commission rates. It's going to be impossible to staff this business with competent people if you pay them less than a liveable wage.

3. Dual agency is illegal in my market, and I'm glad it is. Sellers always want to get the most for their property, buyers always want to get the best price. The agents are there to keep seller or buyer from screwing each other. Dual agency residential is the most litigated type of transaction in all of real estate. 

M&M actually mostly does single agency transactions actually, although it is probably more common for commercial agents to act as dual agents where allowed by law. But commercial is totally different because it is not someone's personal residence. If there is an undisclosed mold problem in a closet, the buyer probably won't even notice. Their wife won't complain, their kid won't get sick. In resi, somebody is going to sue and everybody involved is getting named in the suit, which is why E&O insurance doesn't like dual agency. Dual agency combined with limited services, combined with bottom-feeder employees, means you will get wiped out by lawsuits.

 Hiring and turnover/ staffing issues will make it very difficult to scale and sustain this business, and a nightmare to manage IMO. Every state has their own real estate laws of course, so legal compliance will also be challenging. Yes national brands manage it, but they typically charge 6% not 0.6% lol. You would not be covering overhead charging 0.6%. You'd be operating at a loss and the greater you scale, the more you'd lose. 

Like I said, good model if you hate making money and love being sued. Spirit Airlines is an interesting business model for you to reference considering they just filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. That's where you'd end up as well, so what's the point? This is a difficult business to be in. I don't see why anyone would do it if they aren't making good money. If you stay in the business a minute, you will see many discount brokerages come and go. 

Post: Refusing a Tenant Prospect Before Showing/Application

Steve K.#1 Real Estate Agent ContributorPosted
  • Realtor
  • Boulder, CO
  • Posts 2,917
  • Votes 5,197
Quote from @David Spurlock:

Hey @Fareen E.,

You've gotten a lot of feedback here saying you are in the clear to decline them. However, I would disagree. I do the majority of my leasing on Facebook and Zillow and I never ask for an ID. You need to think about this from the tenant's perspective. While Facebook Marketplace isn't the sketchiest site (craigslist), I personally would never give my ID across it. If the only indication that he is difficult is not wanting to send his ID to a stranger on Facebook, I wouldn't blame him. 

You are more than welcome to decline a showing because he is not comfortable with your requirements, but you are not allowed to discourage someone from applying to your apartment. That is an easy way to get a Fair Housing Violation case.


Lastly, why do you care who is looking at the property? When they apply is when you should confirm their identity. 


 Asking for ID as a requirement to show a rental is not a fair housing violation, and there are plenty of reasons why a landlord should care who is looking at their property, theft and their own personal safety being the first 2 that spring to mind, followed closely by not wanting to waster their time. If someone isn’t willing to provide ID, they are not a serious applicant and possibly a scammer, so it’s a good screening tool to weed out the tire-kickers and sketch balls. My PM asks for ID as step #1 for these reasons. 

Post: Tell Me Why My Discount Brokerage Idea Is Bad: Calling All Agents

Steve K.#1 Real Estate Agent ContributorPosted
  • Realtor
  • Boulder, CO
  • Posts 2,917
  • Votes 5,197

This sounds like a great idea if you hate making money and love being sued. 

Post: What to Expect at Eviction Hearing

Steve K.#1 Real Estate Agent ContributorPosted
  • Realtor
  • Boulder, CO
  • Posts 2,917
  • Votes 5,197

One other possibility to prepare for is that the court may ask the two of you to meet with a mediator prior to the judge hearing the case. I've had that happen before and have come to an agreement with the tenant prior to going before the judge. For this, I'd recommend being prepared with the terms you're willing to accept in such a situation and staying firm. Given the details you provided, I personally might not want to settle this in mediation with this tenant however as I'd probably just want a judge to cut through the BS and tell them to pay up and get out at this point. They seem unreasonable and I'd probably want to get rid of them and place a new tenant as painlessly as possible, with the help of the sheriff if necessary. Don't worry about any of his "calculations" or "reasons", in my experience judges have no time for that stuff. Every time I've been to court for an eviction the judge has cut the tenant off any time the dialogue moves away from documented facts. They usually say "Did you pay rent" and if the answer is no or the tenant starts giving excuses, the judge  shushes the tenant like Judge Judy then moves on to "can you move out by yourself or do I need to have the sheriff help you move out?" 

Good luck and let us know how it turns out. 

Quote from @Pamela M.:

Whats the process to put these people in collections ? I understand that it may jpt be worth my time but I would like to know more about the process. I have read that you have send a letter to the tenant to claim abandonment but where do I send the letter. Thanks!

Just contact a collections agency and send them proof of the debt owed (could be the signed lease agreement or a judgement if you have one). You'll need good contact info for them to be able to collect, and ideally the new address for the tenant however which if you don't have can probably be found easily with some online sleuthing/ contacting their employer, skip tracing software, etc. I've had success simply informing the tenant that I plan to involve a collections agency as a next step if they don't pay what they owe. Hopefully your lease has provisions that explain the process for adding a house mate/ how long guests can stay/ repurcussions for breaking the lease and I would reference those in your note. For example mine says that in the event the tenant moves out before the end of their lease, they are responsible for rent until I can place a new tenant. I'd change the locks and start working on finding that new tenant immediately. In the meantime, put the tenant who broke their lease on notice that they have violated the terms that they agreed to in the lease which is a binding legal document. They are responsible for paying rent until you place a new tenant. A collections agency will be engaged to collect the rent owed if they don't pay. Collections agencies typically take 30-50% of what they collect. 50-70% of something is better then 100% of nothing IMO.