Contractors looking at it like there making me rich
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Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
8y
This isn't the first time you've posted about how envious the people around you are. Yet look at your profile pic. There you are, shirtless and buffed out to display how much leisure time you have to spend at the gym, having fun in a world where everything is easy. I think it's probably safe to assume much of your social media exposure is like that, too.
What kind of car do you drive? Where do you buy your shoes? How many outward signs of wealth and status do you exhibit?
And how much wealth did you inherit or how many gifts did you receive to get your business going? Is there any truth to the rumor of you being a "real estate rich kid"? If there is, well, welcome to the reality of never being able to live it down.
On the other hand, if you feel compelled to protest that nobody gave you anything and you had to work for every penny of it, you need to make sure that's what you look like. Holes in your shirt and drive a s***box where anyone can see you. When you travel, you have to do it for "family reasons" (practice your sad look in the mirror). If you get a tan in Western PA, it sticks out, as you know.
Do you live in a personal castle and frequently have people over so they can look at it and understand how successful you are? Do you talk to other people about how many rental properties you own, or how many high-end homes you've flipped, or the multifamily you're looking at for your next buy? If you are, you need to drink a big glass of ****.
This is real estate. It's a brutal business. Suck it up, Buttercup.
80 Replies
- Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes8y
I just be my authentic self and if people can't accept that then they move on.
Time is short. Opinions are like butts everybody has one.
I choose to spend my life happy and content. The second your self worth hinges on what everyone's random thoughts or ideas of you are is the second you give your power away.
Having said that sometimes it is not the words chosen when you speak but the delivery of them. Watch a video of yourself sometimes. What you perceive when you talk and speak might not match up to the image of what people are seeing.
- Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes8yTo comment off Dan Heuschele I personally also hope to do the LLC thing eventually. Then no one knows I own it. Plus I’m investing long distance anyways (and don’t see that stopping anytime soon) so know one will know. I also would never drive a showy car. It’s not me. I was raised in a family that doesn’t do showy signs of money and I too have no desire to do that.
- Catskill, NY · Member since 2018 · 636 posts · 668 votes8yWithout knowing you personally, it’s almost impossible to draw a conclusion as to why people/contractors feel that way towards you. Maybe you are coming off as arrogant or thinking you’re better than them and you just don’t realize it. On the other hand, they could just be jealous people, for whatever reason. Marrying into a rich family can also be a reason they think you didn’t work for what you have. One of my best friends when I was in high school married into a rich family and he went from driving $10k used trucks to brand new BMWs and $70k brand new trucks and having boats and lake houses. While he does work for his wife’s family business, he didn’t “start at the bottom.” I haven’t talked to him in a long time because every time I would, he was always talking about how much money he had and blah blah blah. It got old. I wasn’t jealous by any means, just didn’t care to hear about it. I’m not rich by any means (yet), but I own a few houses. Very few people, even close friends, know I own anything other than my primary home. I don’t and never did care what people thought of me. Just stay humble and everything should be good!
- Investor · River City, Manitoba · Member since 2017 · 162 posts · 193 votes8y
Read some very wise replies on here... there's a lot for you to mull over on this...
here's my two cents:
1) If you don't like the impression others have of you, you need to change your behaviours.
2) Why are you so concerned what others think of you anyways? Do you have a motive or do you just want everyone to like you? If it's the former, you need to look at #1 again... if it's the latter... well sorry to break the news to you but you can't please all the people all the time mate!
- Realtor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Just tell them you work FOR a group of investors. Then you are working a job just like them. It makes it easier when they ask for money as you can always say that the INVESTORS require lien waivers, EIN #s and approval before THEY will release funds.
- 8yBjorn AhlbladPro MemberInvestor · Shelton, WA · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 6k+ votes
What an entertaining thread!! Made my day! Thanks for starting this Joshua, and maybe my grandmas' words will help you as they have me. She said "son it is good to be a little humble; but you only have a problem so long as you give a crap".
- Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes8y
I’ve seen this on another comment but I also like the idea of just saying you’re the manager and not the owner. They likely won’t know the difference
- Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 83 posts · 46 votes8y
I have not run into this problem with tenants or contractors yet, but I have run into with friends and co-workers. I try to educate them and let them know that they can do it themselves with some savings and some willpower.
Thank you for making this thread though. I did learn some things from the replies.
- Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes8yI am not sure why they think that way, what they see is, how much you bought it, how much their work is, and how much you sold it for. Ask them what they think it costs or how much money they think you’re making. Then, start breaking it down, agent fees, escrow fees, bird dog fees, closing costs, holding costs, etc etc). Pretty simple explanation, since they make money by the day or hour, then tell them that those people who are doing paperwork and services have families to feed as well, and you have one too.
- Specialist · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2012 · 865 posts · 351 votes8y
First of all contractors CAN help you. :) and they get less in the long run. I have had some contractors help me get closer to my goals.
Now here is a thought that I didn’t see mentioned.
Do you joke around and tease your workers in anyway? If you do even a little they will pick back bossman or not. Do you talk school yard trash around your workers? I don’t tease or kid around with my workers for this and other reasons.
- Beaverton, OR · Member since 2014 · 118 posts · 119 votes8y
Go put in a days worth of work along side the workers. Be there first, leave last, work the hardest, and do the toughest jobs right in front of them. Position yourself as a follower of their leadership in "their world". Then bring out a cold pack of beer at the end of the work day. You'll win their affection and respect for quite a while. Even when new workers come and "gripe about the rich kid owner", you will have built a loyal following that stands up for you.
Everyone who works for me knows that I would outwork them in a heartbeat with a smile on my face, a good attitude, and would never ask someone to do something I wouldn't personally do. I only get my hands dirty once in a blue moon, but when I do, I make it count and make it visible.
Also, I'd recommend the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People". Read that a couple times, take action on the principals, and you'll be well loved.
- Brookline, NH · Member since 2017 · 14 posts · 4 votes8yHow about helping them achieve what you have?
- Rental Property Investor · Cherry Hill, NJ · Member since 2017 · 119 posts · 60 votes8y
this is a f&@king weird thread....
- Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 7 votes8y@Jim K. that envy joke had me cracking up! Kudos on inclusion of the Irish, French and Greek accents
- Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes8y
Oh, the hardest and the toughest jobs?
Maybe bullnose the granite for the bathroom on-site?
You ever build a mud pan for a shower?
Used a framing plumb bob?
Ever clamped a raised panel custom cabinet door? Would you know what Space Balls were for if I handed you a pack?
Ever put in a drywall repair clip?
Is it better to use fiberglass or rockwool insulation to insulate weight cavities before putting in replacement windows?
What kind of JC should I stick with for heavy composite tape and no=fastener reinforced corner bead?
Ever sawn out a section of cast-iron 3-inch stack and put in a ABS or PVC replacement with Fermco couplings? Is it ABS or PVC that you have to prime before you solvent-weld it?
You sweated any copper piping? Should I pick up L or M 1/2 in. pipe to run interior lines at the big orange retail giant? And what about water hammer and air chambers? Do I need a third or a fourth of a bubble slope on my runs of horizontal DWW piping? What does that translate to in inches of slope per foot?
Come on, Jason (hey, there's your name, the sweetest sound in the world to you, see my Dale Carnegie reading showing?). Your profile indicates no actual building or contracting experience. And you're most definitely not old enough to call yourself a master builder. The first property I renovated singlehandedly was in 2006, at 32. And I am most definitely NOT a master builder. Just an old fart home improvement contractor with a currently lapsed registration, a middle-aged dude running rentals in Steel City and the immediate environs.
I could NOT outwork everyone on a job site, most especially my plumber/HVAC guy and electrician. They both know this and they know I know and respect this. It helps that they also both own rental properties.
Any investor who doesn't spend his days up to his elbows in the work and decided to come in on the jobsite one day would be the New Guy, also known less politely on building sites worldwide by a number of less than politically-correct terms. Someone will have to hold her or his hand all day long, probably more than one guy, slowing down the whole crew. At best, such an investor would gain some respect for showing that she or he didn't think they were too good to work on a jobsite for ONE DAY. But in the end, Jason, have you devote a significant part of your life, thousands of man-hours, to building and renovating? Have you sacrifice your body to it over the years? Got a Flexbar set to work out chronic carpenter's elbow in both arms?
No matter how many times you try to show a sincere interest, no matter how many names you remember, no matter how often you work to be sympathetic, it'll still be obvious to your guys that you don't have the skill set to work daily on a decent general residential renovation crew. You won't belong to the pipe-hitting tribe, and it is a tribe, believe you me. There's a lack there that all the enthusiasm and goodwill will not cover. Nor will a six-pack lessen the degrees of separation between you and the people producing the visible work product on the jobsite.Not going nuclear on you, Jason. This is a major interest of mine. I came late to building and I'm writing up a series of articles about the American skills gap in the trades and the ways I see it affecting much of residential real estate investment -- flipping, turning rental properties, self-managing SFRs and small multifamilies in C/D borderline areas. Hopefully, I'll put them on a blog here on BiggerPockets.
If you disagree with me, please feel free to tell me why. It would be very nice to be proven wrong here. - Laurel, MD · Member since 2018 · 15 posts · 4 votes8y
I wouldn't worry about what other people think. No matter what you do someone will not be pleased. You can hand someone 100K in cash and they will still have a complaint or comment. Enjoy your life and focus on intrinsic happiness! Outsiders don't matter. I hope to one day have your problem! ;-)
- Investor · The Creek, WV · Member since 2014 · 890 posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Jim K.:
Oh, the hardest and the toughest jobs?
Maybe bullnose the granite for the bathroom on-site?
You ever build a mud pan for a shower?
Used a framing plumb bob?
Ever clamped a raised panel custom cabinet door? Would you know what Space Balls were for if I handed you a pack?
Ever put in a drywall repair clip?
Is it better to use fiberglass or rockwool insulation to insulate weight cavities before putting in replacement windows?
What kind of JC should I stick with for heavy composite tape and no=fastener reinforced corner bead?
Ever sawn out a section of cast-iron 3-inch stack and put in a ABS or PVC replacement with Fermco couplings? Is it ABS or PVC that you have to prime before you solvent-weld it?
You sweated any copper piping? Should I pick up L or M 1/2 in. pipe to run interior lines at the big orange retail giant? And what about water hammer and air chambers? Do I need a third or a fourth of a bubble slope on my runs of horizontal DWW piping? What does that translate to in inches of slope per foot?
Come on, Jason (hey, there's your name, the sweetest sound in the world to you, see my Dale Carnegie reading showing?). Your profile indicates no actual building or contracting experience. And you're most definitely not old enough to call yourself a master builder. The first property I renovated singlehandedly was in 2006, at 32. And I am most definitely NOT a master builder. Just an old fart home improvement contractor with a currently lapsed registration, a middle-aged dude running rentals in Steel City and the immediate environs.
I could NOT outwork everyone on a job site, most especially my plumber/HVAC guy and electrician. They both know this and they know I know and respect this. It helps that they also both own rental properties.
Any investor who doesn't spend his days up to his elbows in the work and decided to come in on the jobsite one day would be the New Guy, also known less politely on building sites worldwide by a number of less than politically-correct terms. Someone will have to hold her or his hand all day long, probably more than one guy, slowing down the whole crew. At best, such an investor would gain some respect for showing that she or he didn't think they were too good to work on a jobsite for ONE DAY. But in the end, Jason, have you devote a significant part of your life, thousands of man-hours, to building and renovating? Have you sacrifice your body to it over the years? Got a Flexbar set to work out chronic carpenter's elbow in both arms?
No matter how many times you try to show a sincere interest, no matter how many names you remember, no matter how often you work to be sympathetic, it'll still be obvious to your guys that you don't have the skill set to work daily on a decent general residential renovation crew. You won't belong to the pipe-hitting tribe, and it is a tribe, believe you me. There's a lack there that all the enthusiasm and goodwill will not cover. Nor will a six-pack lessen the degrees of separation between you and the people producing the visible work product on the jobsite.Not going nuclear on you, Jason. This is a major interest of mine. I came late to building and I'm writing up a series of articles about the American skills gap in the trades and the ways I see it affecting much of residential real estate investment -- flipping, turning rental properties, self-managing SFRs and small multifamilies in C/D borderline areas. Hopefully, I'll put them on a blog here on BiggerPockets.
If you disagree with me, please feel free to tell me why. It would be very nice to be proven wrong here.Thank you so much for this post. I chuckled when he made that claim. Sounds like a pretty boy who thinks he is working hard but he doesn't know what hard work is.
He even said he rarely shows up to do this stuff himself. No way he is outworking the people who do this on a daily basis.
You don't have to prove anything. I can shake someones hand and tell whether or not they work hard or sit at a desk all day.
- Beaverton, OR · Member since 2014 · 118 posts · 119 votes8y
Wow Jim, that felt pretty rude, and you sure made a lot of assumptions about me when you know nothing about me. Normally I wouldn't respond, but since you publicly shamed me in front of all my friends .....
First of all, I never called myself a master builder, nor would I be so ignorant to do so. I would also never claim to truly know what trades people go through after performing physical labor for decades. Wow, what a tough and honorable career.
However, I have been the "grunt guy" on about 10 different house flips through high school. I do have two degrees in Construction Engineering. I have worked for a general contractor during my college years. Again, I was the grunt who got loaned out to any sub like a slave to do the work non of them wanted to do when my superintendent "owed them a favor". I have worked with multiple unions, pile bucks, carpenters, pipe fitters, plumbers, you name it. I've been involved on projects installing dams, street cars, BNSF train bridges, mechanical systems at Intel, dental labs, 30 story buildings, you name it. I'm sure I could impress even you with my insider lingo. EVERY time I started out with severe judgement like you just displayed, from the trades people and EVERY time gained respect of the trades in a matter of weeks. How do I do this without putting in 40 years of manual labor and destroying every joint in my body you may wonder?
While I won't respond to your 101 specific questions, here's a good example for you. Just a year ago I had a tenant die and liquefy all over the floor. A restoration company took out all the remaining guts, carpet, etc until it was safe to work with some basic PPE. They left the body soaked plywood. I also "inherited" all the tenants junk (which all stunk like you wouldn't believe). After 10 guys quit the job site and were puking all over my yard, guess who the one person is who cut the plywood out, heaved it into the 30 yard dumpster ALONE, and yarded out 4.7 TONS of junk, almost all ALONE.
Each and every one of my guys knows I wouldn't never ask them to do anything I wouldn't personally come out and do myself. They know the reason I have what I have is because I'm willing to do what 99% of the population isn't willing to do, even if they knew with certainty it would lead them to become a millionaire. I could list of 20 examples but won't. I've had the back spasms, had the fiberglass insulation in every crack of my body, coughed up the black crap in my lungs, had the welding burns, etc, etc etc. It's not about me though. And again, with all sincerity, I'm not a master builder, and I'm certainly not up to par with the level of skill most of the people I hire possess.
There is a huge gap between the difficulties of blue collar and white collar workers. Even though I've had many of their experiences, of course I couldn't extrapolate that over decades. Nor could they understand what it's like to have a dead beat tenant stick their finger in their nose and tell you they are going to sue you for everything you've ever worked for and be the future landlord of your building.
This post is getting long, and I could write 10x the amount here. I still stand behind my advice to the poster though. Somehow us ignorant, soft-handed, privileged, white collar folk need to overcome the common immediate judgement that you've displayed on your response.
- Beaverton, OR · Member since 2014 · 118 posts · 119 votes8y
"......tell whether or not they work hard or sit at a desk all day."
Please explain your reasoning on why hard work is only synonymous with manual labor.
I'm genuinely interested to hear your perspective. My day job often feels very grueling to me, much harder at times than when I worked 50 hrs/week doing manual labor on a job site.
- Rental Property Investor · Brookhaven, MS · Member since 2017 · 186 posts · 108 votes8y
No one ever sees where you come from, they only see what you are now. There's no such thing as an over night success but that is missed by most people. Envy is pretty bad these days, aided by politicians and every other hater out there that wants to take it from you. The only thing I know to tell is what I try to do. Treat everyone the same and then set some standards at the start of each job. I pay an agreed upon wage but that means I don't want to hear any socialist non sense, and if you do hear some fire them.
- Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes8y
I'm sorry you feel that way, Jason, and I wasn't out to shame you or be rude.
I hope we can have this conversation some other day in a different setting. It would be a long one. Good luck to you and everything that you do. - Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes8y
“Only those beneath me can envy or hate me. I have never been envied nor hated; I am above no one. Only those above me can praise or belittle me. I have never been praised nor belittled; I am below no one.” - Kahlil Gibran
You've gotten a lot of nominally conflicting advice in this thread... Fix your public image vs. Don't worry about what other people think. Both of these sentiments are value judgements regarding status.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong (or right) with valuing status. If you are competitive in many fields you are constantly ranked compared to others: Batting averages, class rank, monthly sales, etc.
Here is my .02 cents worth:
- You won't build a team by crawling over the dead bodies of your team mates (you need contractors on your team)
- You will seldom be the best or the worst in the activities where you compete.
- You will run into people with personality disorders. You can't fix them-- don't play with them.
- Figure out what your values are (it's harder than you think); and be true to your values.
- Investor · The Creek, WV · Member since 2014 · 890 posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Jason Powell:
"......tell whether or not they work hard or sit at a desk all day."
Please explain your reasoning on why hard work is only synonymous with manual labor.
I'm genuinely interested to hear your perspective. My day job often feels very grueling to me, much harder at times than when I worked 50 hrs/week doing manual labor on a job site.
The fact that you even have to ask that question tells me all I need to know. I'm sure you do work hard at your desk but don't try and compare that to manual labor working with raw hands because the blisters popped and haven't fully calloused over yet.
Maybe its wrong of me, but yes, I judge people based off of a hand shake. When their hands feel like they sit at a desk all day I chuckle inside my head.
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