Where are the real investors? Any one know?... Bueller... Bueller

184 Replies

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Bob Prisco:

@Steve Snyder they are here, just need to offer the right product/ service  and they will find you . In my 3 months or so utilizing BP, I have flipped about 1 mill  in properties, ( on top of my other clients not from BP, )  I am finding BP to be the best networking for real " players" .

I have a saying, find/ offer a good deal and the money will find you . 

Most other sites  you can lucky but overall just tire kickers. 

Hats off to the founders / marketers on BP.  
 

 this site is heavy to buy and hold cash flow in king appreciation is gambling so any market that provides a modicum of cash flow with 20% down is a ripe target for the vast majority of the BP audience .   there have not been many lately but some of the most spirited threads are the SF bay area investors who have made a KILLING in appreciation debating with those that think 200 .oo a month and no appreciation to speak of is the way to go.. :)   Obviously there are far more people with 50k in their jeans to buy low end rentals than 250k to buy a rental in the SF peninsula.. but there is no arguing if you bought a rental in SF peninsula 5 years ago you made WAAAAY more money than any cash flow investment.. but now that seems to have peaked.. and I see another huge run to cash flow My only suggestion to those buying in those markets is to get them paid for as soon as possible and if you can pay cash.. that's where you make money in low value assets.. IE any asset under 100k..  is what I consider a low value asset.

and don't listen to Clayton MOrris  I should add... low end D class out of state is a great way to lose all your money 

Originally posted by @Steve Snyder :

BiggerPockets for a long time was a great place where investors could meet and exchange information and work together. Over the past year I have noticed a trend of a lot more newbies coming in just looking for information and a lot less real players who truly invest and work together. 

SO... I have two questions....

1) Has anyone else noticed this trend?

2) Where are the real real estate investors conversing if not on this forum?

Trying to figure out where everyone went.

-Steve

Iv'e noticed this as well. Lot's of newbs who have no idea what they are doing yet and maybe just bought one house in podunk Iowa and are here giving accredited investors advice about how to screen apartment complex purchases, citing that you should inspect units, review leases, etc. before even going under contract. If you are an experienced or accredited investor, you know this doesn't happen until you're under contract....Frankly the quality of the forum has gone downhill. Mods chastise people who correct people who post completely ignorant information instead of policing the quality of the information posted here. I recently  had a realtor on here try to tell me to judge the housing market by asking cab drivers if they are investing in real estate. 

@Jay Hinrichs yes SF area is CRAZY. One of my clients paid 300k for his property I believe he said 20 years ago, now value over 2 mill. I have been getting calls and clients from that area over the past 2 months, they like the returns we can show them in the  Cleveland markets..  Well said Jay, as usual :)  all the best, 

Originally posted by @Bob Prisco :

@Jay Hinrichs yes SF area is CRAZY. One of my clients paid 300k for his property I believe he said 20 years ago, now value over 2 mill. I have been getting many calls and clients from that area over the past 2 months, they like the returns we can show them in the  Cleveland markets..  Well said Jay, as usual :)  all the best, 

 My 3rd house I bought in Palo Alto for 183k in 1983 just sold for a touch over 3 million LOL.. 1200 sq ft 3 and 2 nothing special rancher..

but you could have bought that house 5 years ago for 1.5    its is going to go down in the annals of real estate history as one of the greatest appreciation plays in the country no doubt.. 

I have funded about 50 or 60 deals since I first went to Cleveland last summer.. nice area.. solid little rentals.. got to really watch out for those tax's though and POS and a few other gotchas.. but other than that very similar to the other 12 markets I fund deals in for guys like you.. !!!

BiggerPockets has a problem - we are helping investors succeed to a point where their businesses become... boring. Automatic. Stable. When you absorb thousands of perspectives through different written, audio, and video formats, you are going to approach a level of mastery that makes finding additional nuggets harder and harder. That's a good problem. It means we are succeeding in helping you get so comfortable with such a broad variety of real estate and business related issues that you are running out of new concepts to learn from.

But it's still a problem. How do you find investors who are experienced? Well, we figured we'd start by letting folks post deals to their profiles. Check out users on this thread. You can see who has been part of an investment or not by their stats. Expect to be able to filter search results when looking through members in the future. Expect to see "deal diaries" in the future. And this, I think, is the way we can move towards actually allowing users to self-identify as newbies or experienced. This will lay the framework for you, the community, to figure out how to come together and network with people who can help you.

However, you, the experienced investors, will always be encouraged to continue helping the new guys out. I think that some of you may have actually gotten your start, or at least found help on BP in accelerating your progress. There's power in helping others - an old question is still new to them (although we also plan to implement a system that will help point people who are about to ask a question that has already been asked towards a post that covers that topic). 

Perhaps the simple solution to this problem is the creation of "groups" just like on Facebook. Create a group, whenver, however, and invite whoever you want to it. Only members of that group can post to threads created by that group, but anyone can still read the posts. Thoughts on this?

I’m confused as to what questions and conversations need to be had in a private or VIP group that can’t be had in front of *gasp* newbies ? (As opposed to a pm or phone call) Perhaps when I’m a real investor I’ll find out!
Originally posted by @Scott Trench :

BiggerPockets has a problem - we are helping investors succeed to a point where their businesses become... boring. Automatic. Stable. When you absorb thousands of perspectives through different written, audio, and video formats, you are going to approach a level of mastery that makes finding additional nuggets harder and harder. That's a good problem. It means we are succeeding in helping you get so comfortable with such a broad variety of real estate and business related issues that you are running out of new concepts to learn from.

But it's still a problem. How do you find investors who are experienced? Well, we figured we'd start by letting folks post deals to their profiles. Check out users on this thread. You can see who has been part of an investment or not by their stats. Expect to be able to filter search results when looking through members in the future. Expect to see "deal diaries" in the future. And this, I think, is the way we can move towards actually allowing users to self-identify as newbies or experienced. This will lay the framework for you, the community, to figure out how to come together and network with people who can help you.

However, you, the experienced investors, will always be encouraged to continue helping the new guys out. I think that some of you may have actually gotten your start, or at least found help on BP in accelerating your progress. There's power in helping others - an old question is still new to them (although we also plan to implement a system that will help point people who are about to ask a question that has already been asked towards a post that covers that topic). 

Perhaps the simple solution to this problem is the creation of "groups" just like on Facebook. Create a group, whenver, however, and invite whoever you want to it. Only members of that group can post to threads created by that group, but anyone can still read the posts. Thoughts on this?

So Scott  Hi by the way !!,   I posted about an invitation only Mastermind I went to.

I know I would pay to be a member of an online one.. and maybe that is an offshoot.. just like you have folks pay to be pro's .. there could be another paid section say 500.00 bucks for 1000.00 a year for a mastermind.. and then have a sub category like your talking about.

you guys know who is who and you could put out the invitations and filter.. etc.. one thing I did not like about the one I spent 20k on was not knowing who all the members were only to have that revealed after I sent them my 20k.. then I am like shoot don't want to spend 5k for a week of travel for my wife and I and go to this 3 to 5 day event and be in the same room with some of these folks that I don't care to listen to or associate with.. and I get it.. the guy running it cant filter everyone but if I would have had the roster up front I would have saved myself and them the time.. 

So if you have a policy that you can join but if you don't like it in say 5 days or 10 days you get a refund.. that would be cool. and as state this guy refunded my money in full... so I was cool with that..   

so just some thoughts on my end..

@Jay Hinrichs POS is a pain for US  (but we have done 100s and 100s, so ... )  not the clients, we do everything. Start to finish is always about 4- 6  weeks, so not to bad .  Also the POS are going away, three cities now only have exterior, the remaining two will follow soon they will all be gone. Also OOS clients like the fact that there are two non biased inspections ( City and then the state, as we do 80% govt tenants,)  looking over their property and they can see what must be done, so gives them that warm and fuzzy feeling  .

  Wow, 180 to 3 mill, just nuts!! My mom was happy when she paid 45k in 65, and sold 20 years ago for 250k, LOL,,,, since tho it did sell for 750,,,,  Your situation was a game/ life changer. Now you get to play on BP all day LOL,  All the best to you . 

@Scott Trench   OH and CONGRATS at being named el Presidente of BP huge move up and very well deserved !!!!

@Jessica G. the problem is the good information and real deals that people would be looking for get lost in the mire with millions of questions and regurgitated terrible deals which has turned off many investors from participating. It's not about what you see... it's about filtering so only clean, non abusive, strong deals are presented and cut down the white noise. Streamline the process and make it more enjoyable for deals to get made... that is the key.

@Jay Hinrichs - Thanks! I'm mostly spitballing with that idea for the groups, and I think they could easily be free, and community driven - X amount of posts, Y amount of Votes, Z amount of investments (Dollars + # of deals). Just as a way of identifying those with experience from the new. 

As for @Steve Snyder 's concern, with size will always come this problem. The key is appropriate site navigation and filters. Right now, he's right, it's a bit tough to navigate the forums and find posts on specific niche topics. By simply knowing your preferences and using our data correctly, we can easily begin pairing you with content and people that are relevant. 

Steve's concern is obvious - he is a lender looking for high-volume, big money clients, likely serial flippers or those doing new construction. He runs a website that is probably trying to do exactly that - collect a bunch of users who have a high demand for loans, like serial flippers. A first-time flipper is probably small business and higher risk for him compared to a "real investor" that fits his underwriting criteria.

And, just because that's his business, doesn't mean that he's not right that this is a concern for non-vendor investors looking to actually connect and learn from one another about projects they are working on that are not accessible for newbies or those with less than six figures in investable liquidity. There is a need for this, and these are the very folks that may be able to provide the best information to newbies. But I think that the solution is the same - personalizing the experience to a greater degree based on your interests and experience level. A long-term project with incremental milestones for sure. 

Originally posted by @Bob Prisco :

@Jay Hinrichs POS is a pain for US  (but we have done 100s and 100s, so ... )  not the clients, we do everything. Start to finish is always about 4- 6  weeks, so not to bad .  Also the POS are going away, three cities now only have exterior, the remaining two will follow soon they will all be gone. Also OOS clients like the fact that there are two non biased inspections ( City and then the state, as we do 80% govt tenants,)  looking over their property and they can see what must be done, so gives them that warm and fuzzy feeling  .

  Wow, 180 to 3 mill, just nuts!! My mom was happy when she paid 45k in 65, and sold 20 years ago for 250k, LOL,,,, since tho it did sell for 750,,,,  Your situation was a game/ life changer. Now you get to play on BP all day LOL,  All the best to you . 

 I wish I sold in 91 for 500k.. but still not bad for that time and It allowed me to live in the Napa valley for the whole of the 90s.. and made another 500k on that house when I sold.. CA has been very very good to me YES> indeed.

Originally posted by @Bob Prisco :

@Jay Hinrichs POS is a pain for US  (but we have done 100s and 100s, so ... )  not the clients, we do everything. Start to finish is always about 4- 6  weeks, so not to bad .  Also the POS are going away, three cities now only have exterior, the remaining two will follow soon they will all be gone. Also OOS clients like the fact that there are two non biased inspections ( City and then the state, as we do 80% govt tenants,)  looking over their property and they can see what must be done, so gives them that warm and fuzzy feeling  .

  Wow, 180 to 3 mill, just nuts!! My mom was happy when she paid 45k in 65, and sold 20 years ago for 250k, LOL,,,, since tho it did sell for 750,,,,  Your situation was a game/ life changer. Now you get to play on BP all day LOL,  All the best to you . 

 POS turn key you handle I get.. but remember people are reading books on remote rehab.. ( which in my mind is about as dangerous an investing strategy out there) and they just don't know what they don't know.. that was my point.. and we handle the POS or my borrowers do .. I don't I just put the money up for it :)  

Originally posted by @Steve Snyder :

@Jessica G. the problem is the good information and real deals that people would be looking for get lost in the mire with millions of questions and regurgitated terrible deals which has turned off many investors from participating. It's not about what you see... it's about filtering so only clean, non abusive, strong deals are presented and cut down the white noise. Streamline the process and make it more enjoyable for deals to get made... that is the key.

but Steve one man/womens great deal is anothers dud.. we know this being HML with our turn downs.. lots of folks can do simple math.

@Jay Hinrichs all my clients are from Ca, Israel, NJ, DC, FL, and even had one from  Hong Kong , many have never been to Cleveland let along been in the house .  Its all about the team protecting you and having a " client first " mentality. 70% of my biz comes from referrals, We simply do the right thing, ALWAYS. . 

Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs :

@Steve Snyder   I think the PM function works well.. sometimes folks don't respond..

but most do.

Also its a tough gig on this site as you really cant advertise what you do .. so you get all sorts of subliminal messaging going on.. and I understand why the rules are that way.

But maybe a private facebook group put together by some of the folks on this site that want to collaborate off this site.??

although I got on one of those and 90% of what was on there was all these successful guys vacations all over the world  Now I dig that but.. I have been there done that so not really interested in their vacations if they could stick to business maybe.. ???

Part of the issue is the UX of the site. I think they've genuinely struggled with the explosion of growth caused by the economy.  It's just so hard to see friend requests, see the accompanying message that came with the request. It's not an unusual problem. Just one they need to focus on solving. (I don't think VIPing off areas with red rope is have the effect you want.) The Facebook is a pretty good idea with different challenges.

@Jessica G. Great point. Anyone selling a deal would obviously want the deal in front of as many people as possible. Anyone buying a deal would obviously want as few people as possible looking at it. So, there's a need for a group there, but only for the buyers ha! Pretty much any good listing/seller agent will want a deal in front of as many qualified buyers as possible, and will be able to assess the buyer's capacity easily if they are afraid of getting offers from people who can't actually close.

There is, perhaps, a need for a select group to weigh in on certain types of questions. For example, the "Do I need an LLC question" pops up maybe once a month. Wouldn't it be great to have a group of thought leaders in the community answer that question once and for all in an intelligent debate one last time? Without any typos, newbies with no opinion on the subject chiming in, or hot-shot lawyers trying to advertise their secret sauce? Same to a host of commonly asked questions. The posts and replies could be aired publicly, but the responses would be invite only. Again, just spitballing.

Lastly, when it comes to people with truly significant amounts of investable liquidity - let's call it $500,000 on up, there is another risk that comes into play. Having gotten to know some of these people over the past few years, they are incredibly risk-averse. When you have that much cash, you become a target. And asking certain types of questions may attract the interest of people online that you don't want to attract. 

I'm constantly amazed at the number of people who come on here posting to the effect of "I have $100,000 in cash and no plan - please help me!" Luckily it's on BiggerPockets and the crowd typically tells them to go back to the books and read up before making any moves. $500,000 and no plan? $1,000,000 and no plan? More? You may be in for a rough ride and there are, as we pointed out here, fewer (but still some!) people on BiggerPockets with the experience to help you. I don't have advice for the guy with $1,000,000 in liquidity and no plan - I'm the guy who would like to have this problem. 

@Steve Snyder It seems that your post would probably have done more to effect change had it been directed at the mods or the BP powers at be then? In terms of filtering things out, encouraging people to post beginner questions in Starting Out forum, etc. I keep seeing posts that indirectly express annoyance at all of the recent new people joining. It’s somewhat insulting actually, and I’m sorry if that wasn’t the intentIon behind the underlying tone of your post, but yours is the lucky winner that I’ve decided to comment on ;) No biggie, hope you find what you’re looking for! Anyway, I’ll let the real investors get back to it!
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs :
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Bob Prisco:

@Steve Snyder they are here, just need to offer the right product/ service  and they will find you . In my 3 months or so utilizing BP, I have flipped about 1 mill  in properties, ( on top of my other clients not from BP, )  I am finding BP to be the best networking for real " players" .

I have a saying, find/ offer a good deal and the money will find you . 

Most other sites  you can lucky but overall just tire kickers. 

Hats off to the founders / marketers on BP.  
 

 this site is heavy to buy and hold cash flow in king appreciation is gambling so any market that provides a modicum of cash flow with 20% down is a ripe target for the vast majority of the BP audience .   there have not been many lately but some of the most spirited threads are the SF bay area investors who have made a KILLING in appreciation debating with those that think 200 .oo a month and no appreciation to speak of is the way to go.. :)   Obviously there are far more people with 50k in their jeans to buy low end rentals than 250k to buy a rental in the SF peninsula.. but there is no arguing if you bought a rental in SF peninsula 5 years ago you made WAAAAY more money than any cash flow investment.. but now that seems to have peaked.. and I see another huge run to cash flow My only suggestion to those buying in those markets is to get them paid for as soon as possible and if you can pay cash.. that's where you make money in low value assets.. IE any asset under 100k..  is what I consider a low value asset.

and don't listen to Clayton MOrris  I should add... low end D class out of state is a great way to lose all your money 

Anyone find the bunker he's been hiding in lately?

Originally posted by @Kraig Kujawa :
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Bob Prisco:

@Steve Snyder they are here, just need to offer the right product/ service  and they will find you . In my 3 months or so utilizing BP, I have flipped about 1 mill  in properties, ( on top of my other clients not from BP, )  I am finding BP to be the best networking for real " players" .

I have a saying, find/ offer a good deal and the money will find you . 

Most other sites  you can lucky but overall just tire kickers. 

Hats off to the founders / marketers on BP.  
 

 this site is heavy to buy and hold cash flow in king appreciation is gambling so any market that provides a modicum of cash flow with 20% down is a ripe target for the vast majority of the BP audience .   there have not been many lately but some of the most spirited threads are the SF bay area investors who have made a KILLING in appreciation debating with those that think 200 .oo a month and no appreciation to speak of is the way to go.. :)   Obviously there are far more people with 50k in their jeans to buy low end rentals than 250k to buy a rental in the SF peninsula.. but there is no arguing if you bought a rental in SF peninsula 5 years ago you made WAAAAY more money than any cash flow investment.. but now that seems to have peaked.. and I see another huge run to cash flow My only suggestion to those buying in those markets is to get them paid for as soon as possible and if you can pay cash.. that's where you make money in low value assets.. IE any asset under 100k..  is what I consider a low value asset.

and don't listen to Clayton MOrris  I should add... low end D class out of state is a great way to lose all your money 

Anyone find the bunker he's been hiding in lately?

 from what I heard from one of his vendors is that he does what everyone in his position does takes a fabulous vacation to Europe for the summer  LOL.... and like American greed he probably has a big house drives a benz or two  his wife probably has great cloths some nice jewelery etc etc.. it always cracks me up when they do that on those shows..  HE had this he had that.. the only one's who lay low were mafia Don's to a certain extent everyone else goes out and buys what they want .. 

I've seen the trend of more newcomers to the site and think it is a reflection of the phenomenal impact BP has been on providing learning resources and bringing new investors up to speed. I have encountered many active investors whose path began here at BP. For the relatively short history of the site I feel the evidence of its impact is amazing.

The experienced folks are still around, but maybe are less noticeable due to the shifting ratio of newcomers:veterans as well as the fact that many of the "real" investors are spending more time on the deals than on the forums.

In terms of too many unrelated messages...

I don't know if you all use this called "Key Word Alerts" feature in this site.  I use key word "San Francisco" and "Bay Area" to read the forum message.  Using "key word alerts" will reduce incoming messages quite a bit, although it wouldn't filter out newbie introduction type of messages.  

This is an unfortunate string of posts for new people who listen to the podcast and have hope for exiting the rat race. I consider myself smart enough to sit in a room and be smart enough to shut up. So, what are the low net worth investors supposed to do? Do I just grind it out locally in hopes to post a future success story that'll get me noticed by the folks who were smart enough to build after the RE crash while I spent 10 months in Afghanistan? Mostly, I'm upset it took me so long to get serious. So, I'm going to give you the respect you deserve and hope I'm on the guest list for a mastermind group @Jay Hinrichs chooses to attend. 

I always tell junior Sailors to "Remember where they came from." I feel it is key to future filled with less frustration and hate. I know you all are just frustrated, but don't disappear. Be part of the solution and bring a newbie or two along...just kick the ones who talk too much and don't listen 😁

Any issues this site has will be addressed by the people with the skills to fix it. 

@Scott Trench I think starting with a PRO only marketplace would be the easiest start. It would drive more revenue for you and it would limit the amount of white noise that free accounts provide. 

I agree with @Jay Hinrichs and others to make a higher level account level like a "Mastermind" level that is more exclusive and take a review process to be invited or to be a part of. Then, with your new revenue dollars you can go after accredited investors and help bring them in for the people like us who have helped shape and build this community. 

@Jeremy Roberts  Lastly my friend this is not an attack on New investors or those who want to learn. No one wants that to go away but as BiggerPockets evolves and has evolved it has created a void for more experienced investors and individuals who are operating at a higher level. BP should cater to us all and in no means will you be left in the dust. It should be a great place for all of us. I am simply addressing something that clearly is striking a chord with many of us out there and is something that has been boiling in the ether for awhile.

Hmmmmm

Wasn't Biggerpockets built for the newbie in the first place? I dont ask that to throw shade, just an observation of sorts. 

" for the investor large and small"

It would seem there's an opportunity here for BP or maybe one of you "big boys".

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