Insurance company charged me for 30k and Seeking Advice
My property is in an upper unit in a condo with an HOA. (picture below)
Issue: One day, a pipe under the floor leaked from your unit into the downstairs unit below through the kitchen AC vent, causing damage to the neighbor's kitchen. (The pipe is between the ceilings of the upstairs and downstairs units.)
My condo was paid off, so you didn't have house insurance at that time. You bought house insurance on the same date but too late. That means I don't have insurance company to fight for.
The letter from the neighbor's insurance company:
National Subrogation Services, as recovery agent for Mxxx Insurance Company has investigated the facts and determined the accident was due to your insured’s negligence.
Due to the payment to Mr. XXX, we are pursuing the subrogation rights of Mercury Insurance company. The amount we are claiming is the amount paid plus the deductible as noted above. We have enclosed documentation to substantiate our claim.
Actions that I have taken so far:
1. I asked the plumber to prove I am not negligent (still waiting for the statement; it seems like the plumber does not want to do it).
2. I asked my HOA to provide the Condominium Plan for the insurance company. The HOA answered me, saying, "They don't know what that is!"
First of all, this has taught me how important house insurance is.
Can the BP family guide me on what I should do to prevent this Big Charge, or can you recommend a Insurance Policy attorney in California for me, please?
My area is in LA county.
Thank you !!!!
I would turn this over to my insurance company. They will decide to either pay or fight. They have lawyers. I don't think you need a lawyer.
Quote from @Carini Rochester:
I would turn this over to my insurance company. They will decide to either pay or fight. They have lawyers. I don't think you need a lawyer.
Hi Carni
I don't have the insurance company to fight for.
I bought insurance a day after the incident so my insurance company couldn't do anything with it.
I never thought I would say this to another landlord but you may be lucky that you are in the State of California. First, get a copy of your CC&Rs and then review the Davis-Stirling Act. I highly recommend contacting an attorney because the HOA may be the responsible party.
Generally speaking, Davis-Stirling views plumbing that is not accessible from the interior of a unit as HOA property. I'll use my washing machine drainage pipe as an example. I am responsible for maintaining the part of the pipe that is located above my subfloor. The area below my subfloor is considered a common area and the HOA is responsible for maintaining the portion of the pipe located below my subfloor. In other words, if the drainage pipe breaks resulting in water intrusion, responsibility for the damage is assigned depending on where the pipe burst.
California's insurance crisis is taking a toll on HOAs. Pushing back will require a skilled attorney with knowledge of HOA law. I have a great real estate attorney but he's expensive and doesn't specialize in HOAs. If you can't find an owner-friendly HOA attorney (most represent HOAs), shoot me a PM and I will share his contact info. Best of luck!
Quote from @Alison Brenner:
I never thought I would say this to another landlord but you may be lucky that you are in the State of California. First, get a copy of your CC&Rs and then review the Davis-Stirling Act. I highly recommend contacting an attorney because the HOA may be the responsible party.
Generally speaking, Davis-Stirling views plumbing that is not accessible from the interior of a unit as HOA property. I'll use my washing machine drainage pipe as an example. I am responsible for maintaining the part of the pipe that is located above my subfloor. The area below my subfloor is considered a common area and the HOA is responsible for maintaining the portion of the pipe located below my subfloor. In other words, if the drainage pipe breaks resulting in water intrusion, responsibility for the damage is assigned depending on where the pipe burst.
California's insurance crisis is taking a toll on HOAs. Pushing back will require a skilled attorney with knowledge of HOA law. I have a great real estate attorney but he's expensive and doesn't specialize in HOAs. If you can't find an owner-friendly HOA attorney (most represent HOAs), shoot me a PM and I will share his contact info. Best of luck!
Hi Alison,
First of all, thanks for your time in reading of post.
Feel hopeful to see your reply. Love the washing machine example that you made.
I will shoot you a PM !!! Thanks
For the condo mapping plan, its likely part of your closing documents . . . if you can't locate it, consider reaching out to the title company that prepared your file for the sale. The ones that I've seen are in plan only, so I don't know if they go into detail on the vertical separation part . . . its possible that its in the wording and not a diagram like the condo plan part.
#1 All Forums Contributor
- Investor
- Virginia
@Elsa Hsu
Typically pipes under your floor are not your pipes they are either part of the common area or the unit below you even if they still go to your unit
Review your condo / hoa docs
Hi Elsa,
The washing machine example is a real-life example with happy ending. My HOA, property manager, and the owner of the property below mine insisted the damage was my responsibility. The HOA did everything to bully me into submission including involving their legal representation. I tried to file an insurance claim to appease the situation but the claim was denied. My insurance company's position was that I cannot be held responsible for maintaining plumbing that is located outside the boundaries of my property. I was advised to push back and fight the HOA, which I tried doing on my own. After four months I gave up and hired an attorney to draft one letter. Within 72 hours of delivery, the property manager informed me that the HOA would be happy to cover the repairs.
I cannot express how ugly this situation got. It didn't matter that Cali law and the CC&Rs were on my side. The HOA was counting on the fact that I was a grad student without a lot of resources to fight them. On the day I hired the attorney, I had received a threatening letter from legal completely devoid of legal citation and reasoning. There was never going to be an acceptable resolution unless I took back some power by hiring an attorney to draft a 200-word letter.
Here's Jon Janecek's contact info. He will tell you if he is not the right person for the job.
Quote from @Alison Brenner:
I never thought I would say this to another landlord but you may be lucky that you are in the State of California. First, get a copy of your CC&Rs and then review the Davis-Stirling Act. I highly recommend contacting an attorney because the HOA may be the responsible party.
Generally speaking, Davis-Stirling views plumbing that is not accessible from the interior of a unit as HOA property. I'll use my washing machine drainage pipe as an example. I am responsible for maintaining the part of the pipe that is located above my subfloor. The area below my subfloor is considered a common area and the HOA is responsible for maintaining the portion of the pipe located below my subfloor. In other words, if the drainage pipe breaks resulting in water intrusion, responsibility for the damage is assigned depending on where the pipe burst.
California's insurance crisis is taking a toll on HOAs. Pushing back will require a skilled attorney with knowledge of HOA law. I have a great real estate attorney but he's expensive and doesn't specialize in HOAs. If you can't find an owner-friendly HOA attorney (most represent HOAs), shoot me a PM and I will share his contact info. Best of luck!
Thank you so so much, Alison.
This is my darkest time in 2024 and you gave me hope.
I'm in the process of contacting an attorney and reviewing the Davis-Stirling Act.
I will give you an update if I fight it successfully! Thank you again!
Quote from @Chris Seveney:
@Elsa Hsu
Typically pipes under your floor are not your pipes they are either part of the common area or the unit below you even if they still go to your unit
Review your condo / hoa docs
Thank you Chris.
I pulled out condo docs and studying page to page every night now lol
Quote from @Cathy B.:
For the condo mapping plan, its likely part of your closing documents . . . if you can't locate it, consider reaching out to the title company that prepared your file for the sale. The ones that I've seen are in plan only, so I don't know if they go into detail on the vertical separation part . . . its possible that its in the wording and not a diagram like the condo plan part.
Thanks for letting me know where to find these documents.
I guess I had never read it when I bought the condo!!
#1 All Forums Contributor
- Investor
- Virginia
@Elsa Hsu
It absolutely should state in the documents what “you own” and what is considered common area
Usually it’s top of slab (floor structure) to inside face of drywall ceiling and walls are inside face of drywall on internal walls or center line of stud
Either way in most cases a pipe below your floor in the ceiling below even if it goes to your unit is typically not yours