International Real Estate

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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
37
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23
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Property Investment in Portugal

Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Posted Jan 8 2019, 17:57

Hi,

The purpose of this post is to connect with anyone interested/actively investing in the Portuguese Real Estate market. 

I am moving to Portugal in March 2019 and wanted to connect with fellow Property investors. There seems to be an interesting investment case for Portugal currently and by building a supportive network of investors we will be able to discuss opportunities and build our experience faster than if we go it alone

When I arrive in March I will be focusing on learning the market and seeing which strategies will work for me. 

Thanks

Thomas

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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
37
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23
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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Apr 24 2019, 04:24

Thanks Riaan! 

In terms of Peniche, it seems to match my investment criteria. Happy to be challenged on them if anyone disagrees by the way! These are the product of much discussion as it is!

A. Level of current renovation - quite a few properties in Peniche are left to be renovated providing the opportunity that there will be decent area specific capital appreciation. 

B.Economic drivers / Demand- > 1 clear economic driver of tourists, tourist attractions, beaches in general, surfing in particular. The wider local region also seems to have a lot of tourist draw. This provides an international/affluent tourist pool whom are extremely unlikely to disappear regardless of local economic conditions. Peniche also has a university and a fishing industry to provide alternative economic drives if tourism does take a hit.

C.Supply constraints– Peniche is a peninsular!

1.Property – At least T2, and since the property has 2 living rooms I can easily turn it into a T3 Must have:

1. Has a garden, Parking, and hits the requirements to be able to get it licenced as Local Accommodation.  I would think a garden and parking are an attractive draw in peniche, especially in the high season. 

2.Adding value – To be determined amount of renovation/redecoration work is required on the property since it has been sitting empty for 4 years and hasn't been updated in decades. This gives me a chance to add value up front. 

3. Cashflow – the numbers look good and give me leeway if I have underestimated renovation costs, over estimated rental income achievable or make other mistakes I am not aware of yet!

I expect I will make mistakes in this deal so it is a nice small one which will keep my mistakes small as well!

I will let you know how it goes. I am half expecting something to come up in the legal or building due diligence that kills the deal! 

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Christopher Matthews
  • Lisbon, Portugal
6
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9
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Christopher Matthews
  • Lisbon, Portugal
Replied Apr 29 2019, 04:44
Originally posted by @Thomas Youngman:

Hi all,

It seems we have found a property we are keen on in Peniche for investment in the Local Accommodation space. 

In terms of the meet up how would Queluz on Friday 3rd May in the evening work for people?

 Great job! You are moving fast.

Also,  I'm available to meet Friday 3rd of May.  What time?  

I've been to this restaraunt near there, it was good, traditional Portuguese fare: 

Restaurante D'el Rei

Largo Mouzinho de Albuquerque 1, 2745-182 Queluz, Portugal

 https://goo.gl/maps/CWh25LuB59UgFZ6p6.

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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
37
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23
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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Apr 29 2019, 05:44

Hey Chris, 

Thanks, the building inspection went well. Structurally sound so now its just the legal due diligence we have to clear. 

Shall we say 6pm on this Friday 3rd May at:

Restaurante D'el Rei

Largo Mouzinho de Albuquerque 1, 2745-182 Queluz, Portugal

https://goo.gl/maps/CWh25LuB59UgFZ6p6.

Who is keen on coming along?

Thomas

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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
14
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36
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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
Replied Apr 29 2019, 06:14

Hi, 

Unfortunately I will be unable to attend. Hope you guys have a great and productive meet.

Regards,

Rui

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Replied Apr 29 2019, 09:12

@Thomas Youngman - Woohoooo! I'm excited to see how this progress. When everything is done & dusted, would you mind sharing the specifics of the deal (e.g. costing, photos, any renovations you have in mind, financing etc.)? 

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Christopher Matthews
  • Lisbon, Portugal
6
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9
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Christopher Matthews
  • Lisbon, Portugal
Replied Apr 30 2019, 03:12

Queluz. Friday. 18h00. I'll be there. 

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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
21
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42
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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
Replied May 11 2019, 11:13

@Thomas Youngman thanks for sharing. Great inspiration.

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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
21
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42
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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
Replied May 11 2019, 11:20

@Christopher Matthews curious to know how did it went?

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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
14
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36
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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
Replied May 11 2019, 13:10
Originally posted by @Christopher Matthews:

Queluz. Friday. 18h00. I'll be there. 

 Yes, how was it? Good turn out? The discussion was productive?

Regards,

Rui

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Christopher Matthews
  • Lisbon, Portugal
6
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9
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Christopher Matthews
  • Lisbon, Portugal
Replied May 13 2019, 05:13
Originally posted by @Luís Ferreira:

@Christopher Matthews curious to know how did it went?

 Luis,

Just @Thomas Youngman and I this last time! But great discussion. Good to meet someone with similar REI interests here in Portugal. Hopefully, we'll get a few more for a bigger turnout next time.

Speaking of. Does anyone have a suggestion for a date/time?

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Christopher Matthews
  • Lisbon, Portugal
6
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9
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Christopher Matthews
  • Lisbon, Portugal
Replied May 13 2019, 05:14
Originally posted by @Rui Dias Costa:
Originally posted by @Christopher Matthews:

Queluz. Friday. 18h00. I'll be there. 

 Yes, how was it? Good turn out? The discussion was productive?

Regards,

Rui

Rui,

See above ;) comment.

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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
21
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42
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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
Replied May 13 2019, 06:24

@Christopher Matthews, in July will be the best for me. Still in Oslo until then.

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Veronica Jones
  • Rental Property Investor
  • London, Greater London
3
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5
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Veronica Jones
  • Rental Property Investor
  • London, Greater London
Replied May 16 2019, 14:36

I'm not able to meet up as I'll only be there at the end of the month but definitely interested in following progress and participating in discussions. Seems like properties are inflated right now but there are some bargains to be had if you can find them.

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Replied May 19 2019, 12:02

Hello everyone,

Just registered here a few days ago and would like to connect.

Where and when will be the next meetup?

Regards, 

Ângelo Costa

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Replied Jun 21 2019, 03:45

Hi everyone

I would like very much to meet for brain storming of how we can join forces for success

I am 45 Min from Lisbon now so any place like the last time would love to meet and hear form you

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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
37
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23
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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Jun 21 2019, 08:44

Hi,

Its been a pretty hectic couple of months, but some really good experience. 

We have had our first bank valuation done on a property in Peniche. The valuation came in 12.6% under asking price. The estate agent tells me that banks normally undervalue their valuations and that it is great that the valuation is so high (while still being lower than the asking price!), the broker says this is not the case. 

Has anyone with experience of multiple valuations in Portugal got a view on whether banks typically under value their valuations as a norm or not? 

The bank valuation should obviously be a useful objective view on the valuation of the property. It would be good to understand how one should take that view in order to effectively use that information to decide on how to proceed with a property. 

Thanks!

Thomas

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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
14
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36
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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
Replied Jun 21 2019, 15:25
Originally posted by @Thomas Youngman:

Hi,

Its been a pretty hectic couple of months, but some really good experience. 

We have had our first bank valuation done on a property in Peniche. The valuation came in 12.6% under asking price. The estate agent tells me that banks normally undervalue their valuations and that it is great that the valuation is so high (while still being lower than the asking price!), the broker says this is not the case. 

Has anyone with experience of multiple valuations in Portugal got a view on whether banks typically under value their valuations as a norm or not? 

The bank valuation should obviously be a useful objective view on the valuation of the property. It would be good to understand how one should take that view in order to effectively use that information to decide on how to proceed with a property. 

Thanks!

Thomas

Hi Thomas,

Glad to ear that overall you are having good experience in Portugal.

My two cents.

The only formal valuation I ever asked came quite a bit higher than the negotiated price. Got lucky I guess.

Can't you use the valuation number to renegotiate the terms or are you already under contract?

Can your deal still cashflow and is the ROI still good with more equity stuck in it? If it is, you will make it work!

Hang in there!! Best of luck.

Regards, Rui

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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
21
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42
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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
Replied Jun 22 2019, 01:40

If anyone is interested to join me to buy a multi-family (“moradia”) or building (“predio”) in Lisbon region, I am currently looking at the market.

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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
14
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36
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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
Replied Jun 22 2019, 07:41
Originally posted by @Luís Ferreira:

If anyone is interested to join me to buy a multi-family (“moradia”) or building (“predio”) in Lisbon region, I am currently looking at the market.

Hi Luís,

I am sorry but I am not looking to invest in Lisbon.

Anyway, I do have some interest in that market but I was unable to find a workable deal there since late 2017. Do you have one in mind?

Regards, Rui

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Replied Jun 22 2019, 08:44

@Thomas Youngman - That sucks to hear about the valuation - What about getting an independent valuation from someone that's not attached to a bank? Maybe get one from a different bank? At least that way you'll get a pretty good idea on whether the original valuation is accurate or not.

As for what to *do* with the valuation: @Rui Dias Costa took the words out of my mouth :)

Sidenote: Are there any chances to add a significant amount of value to the property (e.g. another bathroom/bedroom)?

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Replied Jun 22 2019, 08:47
Originally posted by @Luís Ferreira:

If anyone is interested to join me to buy a multi-family (“moradia”) or building (“predio”) in Lisbon region, I am currently looking at the market.

 At the moment I'm still some time away from investing in Lisbon although I'm interested to find out how you're looking for those deals -Are you using estate agents, a property listing site or direct marketing in the form of letters / door hangers?

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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
14
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36
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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
Replied Jun 23 2019, 02:14
Originally posted by @Riaan Knoetze:
Originally posted by @Luís Ferreira:

If anyone is interested to join me to buy a multi-family (“moradia”) or building (“predio”) in Lisbon region, I am currently looking at the market.

 At the moment I'm still some time away from investing in Lisbon although I'm interested to find out how you're looking for those deals -Are you using estate agents, a property listing site or direct marketing in the form of letters / door hangers?

 Hi Riaan,

A place to start: https://www.imovirtual.com/# . The english version: https://www.imovirtual.com/en/# .

You have private and agent postings.

Regards, Rui

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Replied Jun 23 2019, 03:01

@Rui Dias Costa - Any thoughts on https://www.idealista.pt/en/ ?

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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
14
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36
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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
Replied Jun 23 2019, 03:37
Originally posted by @Riaan Knoetze:

@Rui Dias Costa - Any thoughts on https://www.idealista.pt/en/ ?

I have never used that site. Don't know.

Context:

- My impression of RE agents in Portugal is that they aren't very investor orientated and after trying to comply with your criteria for a few showing they switch to their normal offering (that usually doesn't cashflow and/or make ROI sense).

- I usually use the site I gave you to get a general view of the market and monitor it's evolution (you can tag properties). It has the bonus feature that you can see private offerings and message the sellers directly. Also, many agents relist their properties there and the same property may have more than one agent and different prices.

Full disclosure: I never bought a property from a site or from an agent and I am pretty new at this (with very little real world experience).

Regards, Rui

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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
21
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42
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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
Replied Jun 23 2019, 04:19
Originally posted by @Rui Dias Costa:
Originally posted by @Riaan Knoetze:
Originally posted by @Luís Ferreira:

If anyone is interested to join me to buy a multi-family (“moradia”) or building (“predio”) in Lisbon region, I am currently looking at the market.

 At the moment I'm still some time away from investing in Lisbon although I'm interested to find out how you're looking for those deals -Are you using estate agents, a property listing site or direct marketing in the form of letters / door hangers?

 Hi Riaan,

A place to start: https://www.imovirtual.com/# . The english version: https://www.imovirtual.com/en/# .

You have private and agent postings.

Regards, Rui

Hei Riaan and Rui,

I use multiple platforms to reserch. Here is my favorites:

https://www.imovirtual.com/en/#

https://www.idealista.pt/en/

https://casa.sapo.pt/en_gb/



In order to get best LTV, banks give a higher % to their own properties.

You can find them at:

https://bpiexpressoimobiliario.pt/

https://www.caixaimobiliario.pt/

https://ind.millenniumbcp.pt/pt/Particulares/viver/Imoveis/Pages/imoveis.aspx#/Search.aspx

https://www.novobancoimoveis.pt/siteimo/

Regarding the research, my way to look for opportunities is to ask every single agent if they can help me to find a property within a certain criteria. Be strict, because they generally send you what they want to sell, not what you want to buy. Open for your advices.