Anderson Business Advisors
I'm interested in talking to anyone that has hired Anderson Business Advisors for help with asset protection strategies. This is the firm founded by author Clint Coons who wrote Asset Protection for Real Estate Investors.
I'd like to hear about your experiences, good or bad. I am considering having them help with the creation of LLCs and land trusts for my buy-and-hold investment properties. They were not able to provide references due to client confidentiality.
@Patricia Smith and @Costin I. Apologies on the delay! I just wanted to thank you both for the kind mention. Regarding the Clayton Morris podcast, you are correct that each property you own should be in a separate LLC. However, this can be accomplished through a Series LLC. The Series LLC acts as an umbrella, a parent of sorts, and can create individual child series that are treated as separate entities. Each individual child series would then hold a property. This eliminates the need for costly filings for multiple LLCs and allows you to separate your properties. Instead of your properties being in one big pot, they are now in separate bowls. If you would like more information, please reach out. Thanks again!! And good luck on your endeavors!
We are newbie investors and recent Anderson clients (just a few months, regular platinum service), and we are thrilled with their services. My husband and I have two businesses that put us at high risk and we live in a state with NO homestead protections. Our primary need was re-structuring for personal asset protection, followed by estate planning and, of course, structuring for buy and hold real estate investing. My mother also needed to update her old, outdated living trust and she needed re-structuring for real estate and cash asset protection, as well. Because we needed more than a few entities, and two living trusts, and because we moved ahead with the platinum service, we received quite the discount off of their published price list. We've found them knowledgeable and responsive about rather nuanced concepts that vary with ones location and overall financial situation. Perhaps, it's merely their marketing acumen, but they know how to communicate competence and engender confidence in their team. As stated by Derek (Nebraska), one might consider them pricey, but you most assuredly get what you pay for. At this point, we find Anderson to be worth their price point.
I've recently enrolled in the Anderson system and so far I'm really pleased. It wasn't cheap however, one of the main reason I did it was because they combine their legal and tax teams to figure out the right strategy customized to your situation and goals. I've spent so much time and money with Attorneys setting up a legal strategy and they'd tell me to go find a CPA who in turn would offer tax advice contrary to how my legal entities were structured. These 2 departments usually don't converse well with each other. At Anderson they do and are strategically integrated in the overall strategy.
Another major factor that makes sense is that they don't charge hourly. Ofcourse it's a heafty chunk upfront but to me I like this. That means in theory, you become a priority. Essentially I'm buying into a strategic partner who is now vested in me. I'm big on building a life team and I needed someone like these guys in my corner. Included in my membership is unlimited tax or legal questions, Unlimited LLC set up, Document review up to 2x 15 page documents per month. This I was excited about because it saves me money. I usually end up spending $100+ with attorneys for simple questions and often they don't know my set up.
The way I broke down my decision to move forward with them was that I looked at how much I had to lose were there ever a situation that arose that I need asset protection and how much I gained in tax savings as well. Like insurance, you pay thousands of $$$ over the course of years where nothing happens, and then 1 incident happens and all of it pays for itself. That's how I justified the upfront cost. If you don't have a big enough asset base yet, wait until you do. Probably 5 years ago, I wasn't ready to sign on with them. But if you have enough to lose, why would you want to risk it by going cheap and patching things up disjointed here. It really is a complete system and I like that. I can go to 1 place and get this part of my life and business taken care of with confidence.
Hope this helps.
@Patricia Smith, just to clarify a few things. First land and liability laws can vary greatly from state to state, and I am in a different state than anyone posting here. That being said a lot of critical information is being glossed over. First forming a trust will not stop a lawsuit. There is no legal special protection for trusts saying they cannot be sued. That in my opinion, is misleading. Next it is very important that you understand the difference between professionally managed and self managed. Liability is usually based on a simple formula, duty, breach, causation, and damages. All must be present to win except in some areas of special legislation bypassing some of these portions. If you personally manage a property and personally do a negligent act that is a breach of your duty as a manager or owner you will be personally liable, even if you have a dozen LLCs, ie you drive the company car drunk or run a stop sign and kill someone prepare to be sued and be held personally liable. Next, if you have no "hands on" dealing, a property management company does all of the management and all of the maintenance etc. what does it matter if you just have a single LLC as your entire liability protection? that will not be able to be pierced if done properly. The liability comes where you did a liable act or failed to an act when you should have. If you have separate entities you are less likely to have possible liability spill across to other properties, but you have tons of more cost in time and paperwork in establishing more entities. Every separate entity needs it's own accounting and bank account etc., otherwise it is not separate. They say put a mortgage in place for the value of the property. Who holds that mortgage? You can follow the money from that mortgage. Someone has to pocket the proceeds from that check and you can follow that trail. If it is a bogus mortgage intended only to protect that property it is a basis to disregard that entity and pierce the corporate veil. If you want that money to go into your pocket to take a trip to Europe, they can follow that money to you. There is a cost for every peel of protection you get. There is protection from some of the things they tout, but I believe it is not necessary for the vast majority of investors.
If you look at the truly big movers and shakers on this site, Brian Burke, the DeRosa group, etc. you will find none of them use this kind of a structure. it is too cumbersome, too expensive and not well suited to being in charge of your own money. The type of property you buy is also important, as well as the cost. these programs should be tailored to the individual, not one size fits all. If there was truly an absolute sure way to never be sued or never lose a property don't you think everyone would use it? Don't you think there would be thousands of law firms selling it? This "I have the secret sauce no one else has" form of marketing is very offensive to me. If you invest from overseas and do not personally handle the management of the property, I don't see how you need the complex system being sold here.
Just my two cents.
@Jerry W., as far as I know, the firm discussed here would simply recommend an LLC for holding a rental property. When there are multiple rental properties in question, more than one property can reside in the same LLC, or properties can be divided across multiple LLCs as many other sources on biggerpockets have advocated. Anderson Business Advisors seems to prefer more separation of property across business entities than I think is warranted for many investors given the availability of affordable insurance policies, but that topic has been covered in other threads already.
With respect to trusts, I have seen this advocated to facilitate transfer of rental business into the LLC. For example, if the property has a conventional mortgage, and title is transferred to the LLC, it could prompt the bank to consider executing the mortgage's due-on-sale clause, but transferring title to a trust would not raise the same red flag. I have not seen any claim that the trust provides liability protection on its own.
Any additional "secret sauce" structure being referenced by this thread is openly disclosed on YouTube by the founders of the firm and can be adopted without the need to pay for their services. For example, the notion of a "holding" LLC (in a state with charging order protection) that owns other LLCs (in the states where the rental properties are located) is not unique to this firm, but it is certainly promoted more dominantly by this firm than other sources I've come across. The main pieces missing for the DIY-er would be (a) the lack of insight into whether these templates are suitable for a specific business case, e.g. state-specific legal ramifications, and (b) the lack of legal forms such as appropriate articles of organization or trust documents. If you're interested in the overall "holding LLC" structure but have another source of business and legal advice to help fill in the gaps, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to move forward. One notable exception might be with respect to starting a C corp for the sole purpose of flipping homes, as most CPAs I know would push back on that route.
I would hope that people considering using their services would be doing so with the understanding that their advisor would custom-tailor a solution for their specific circumstances, but I have the impression that the founders feel the sample structures described online are flexible enough to serve as starting points for the majority of their clients.
We have hired Anderson Business Advisors (ABA). We have created holding WY LLC and several local LLC's. My question is about their Land Trust (LT) structure, as the properties needs to go to LT then into LLC. It is a Nevada land trust that has a trigger trusties from ABA. In the case of an impeding law suite, trustee steps down and ABA trustee kicks in and starts managing my property ( and I assume charges me the management fees) . The beneficiary looses ability to control the land trust. Obviously LT is still in LLC.
Does anyone has any experience with it? I called ABA to ask them to explain it to me, but I did not get any clear answer. Their own people do not fully understand it so they can explain it to me. So I am stuck!
@Wilco Ravestijn How has been your experience so far with Anderson (since your replied 3 months ago)? I have a question on Anderson's tax services. Do they have a CPA service in house that will do your taxes with the Platinum package or is it mainly an advisory service with consultations as needed. If no CPA service, what if their advice conflicts with your current CPA? Would they be able to recommend a firm more aligned with their services?
@Quenton Mullins , How have your experience been with Anderson Advisors?? I just went through their 3 day seminar, which provided a wealth of information. My biggest concern is the size of their company and whether they have the personnel to provide the timely service I would expect.
Greetings. Apologies in advance for the long post/rant but looking for some feedback regarding my experience with Anderson.
I had a call with ABA a few months ago. The phone call was very "sell-me-now"-ish, which is fine I was already expecting that. On the call I told the advisor what I wanted (WY LLC and 2nd LLC in the state I intended to buy RE). Although he kept pitching the Platinum Pkg for $11k I said no, just want the 2 LLC's which he gave me an estimate of about $5k. The call ended with him agreeing to email me a breakdown of my package and what exactly I was getting for my money. He also advised me to feel free to email any questions I had forgotten to ask on the call. All seemed well.
Well, I never got that email from him. I did get several emails and phone calls from 2 different assistants asking how was the call and if I wanted to schedule a follow-up consultation. Nope, just waiting on that email I was promised so that I can give you my business... but hey. When I sent a follow up email for the price breakdown, and with a tax question I had, he responded with "recap, we spoke about price and I said about $5k". Several weeks later I received a call from him directly, asking "hey just following up to see if you're still interested in setting up those LLC's"... My response, "Yup, still waiting on the reply email from you with price breakdown and the answer to my tax question". He stated he'll pull up the email and get right back to me. That was 1 month ago. Still nothing.
So here's my question(s), would it be wrong of me to call ABA and request a different advisor, or is this advisor's etiquette indicative of the entire company? Is this to be expected since I'm not buying their $11k Platinum Pkg? Are these guys the only game in town and can compile the same structure?
Any feedback would be appreciative. Thanks.
Originally posted by @George L.:
Greetings. Apologies in advance for the long post/rant but looking for some feedback regarding my experience with Anderson.
I had a call with ABA a few months ago. The phone call was very "sell-me-now"-ish, which is fine I was already expecting that. On the call I told the advisor what I wanted (WY LLC and 2nd LLC in the state I intended to buy RE). Although he kept pitching the Platinum Pkg for $11k I said no, just want the 2 LLC's which he gave me an estimate of about $5k. The call ended with him agreeing to email me a breakdown of my package and what exactly I was getting for my money. He also advised me to feel free to email any questions I had forgotten to ask on the call. All seemed well.
Well, I never got that email from him. I did get several emails and phone calls from 2 different assistants asking how was the call and if I wanted to schedule a follow-up consultation. Nope, just waiting on that email I was promised so that I can give you my business... but hey. When I sent a follow up email for the price breakdown, and with a tax question I had, he responded with "recap, we spoke about price and I said about $5k". Several weeks later I received a call from him directly, asking "hey just following up to see if you're still interested in setting up those LLC's"... My response, "Yup, still waiting on the reply email from you with price breakdown and the answer to my tax question". He stated he'll pull up the email and get right back to me. That was 1 month ago. Still nothing.
So here's my question(s), would it be wrong of me to call ABA and request a different advisor, or is this advisor's etiquette indicative of the entire company? Is this to be expected since I'm not buying their $11k Platinum Pkg? Are these guys the only game in town and can compile the same structure?
Any feedback would be appreciative. Thanks.
Martin, what's the LTV on your asset(s) that you're wanting to put into the LLC(s), and do you carry a $1M insurance policy per asset?
@Matthew McNeil the LTV would be minimal to none since I'm looking to do a cash deal. I say would be since I don't have the properties yet. The reason for wanting the LLC's before acquiring the properties is, I had 2 rental properties which I since sold but I had them under my own name. Don't want to make that same mistake again.
Originally posted by @George L.:
@Matthew McNeil the LTV would be minimal to none since I'm looking to do a cash deal. I say would be since I don't have the properties yet. The reason for wanting the LLC's before acquiring the properties is, I had 2 rental properties which I since sold but I had them under my own name. Don't want to make that same mistake again.
Martin, understandable to consider anonymity protection that Anderson helps their clients secure if your asset was paid for in cash. However, if you read through the majority of the posts on this thread, the general consensus would dissuade you from pursuing the cost that Anderson charges for that level protection and the charging order protection of filing the LLC in WY. The general advice would be that if you're personally worth less than $1M and if you have $1M liability policy on each asset and you have an LLC in your respective state and you're making sure the "veil" is not being pierced then its NOT necessary to pay for the type of service Anderson is selling. However, each BP member needs to follow their own personal conviction regarding their risk tolerance, and put the mechanisms in place to alleviate that risk. Hope that helps.
Thanks to everyone who has given their views on Anderson Advisors. I too have spoken with one of their representatives in person. While I also would like to ensure I have the LLC's and Land Trusts set up correctly, the cost seems far too expensive initially. I think I agree with many who suggest that your net worth might be a better guide to determine if the cost is worth it.
It sounds like it might be a good idea to set up a holding LLC in either Wyoming or Nevada and child LLC's in individual states for each property. Setting them up yourself would be cheaper initially and would provide the best tax benefits while using insurance policies to protect from frivolous law suits.
Does this sound accurate?
I signed up with Anderson and I'm thinking about canceling. They were not transparent about the additional fees. We've been with them for about 1 year. We paid $10-12K to get set up with the Platinum Package including the tax portion. They created an elaborate asset protection structure for us which included 2 LLC's, S-corps, C-corp, holding co. My wife and I are newbie investors. In addition, we have to pay $35 mo. We just became informed that Anderson also has an annual $795 fee, plus I have to renew all these entity structures which comes to about $2k. It's really frustrating financially for someone just starting out.
Can someone tell me a little about what type of insurance policy i would be looking for that gives the kind of protections you're all referring to?
I currently have a tenant suing me for wrongful termination and my insurance company said they have no coverage for this. What type of policy should i have had?
I am considering hiring Anderson but don't want to allow the fear tactic or hard sell to convince me into jumping into a big financial decision like this. I have multiple assets and need to consider if I'm ready to open 12 LLC's after I was trying to downsize a bit. They definitely convince you that you need to but then other advice and attorney say that ultimately it can be found and pierced.
Is there a policy specific to cover you from Lawsuits?
Would love to hear from some people that have hired as to whether or not you really get the attention you need. I have multiple property assets and other businesses and a HUGE amount of liability and decisions to make. Wondering if I will really get the facetime needed to answer all of these questions.
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Originally posted by @Laura Ancheta:Can someone tell me a little about what type of insurance policy i would be looking for that gives the kind of protections you're all referring to?
I currently have a tenant suing me for wrongful termination and my insurance company said they have no coverage for this. What type of policy should i have had?
I am considering hiring Anderson but don't want to allow the fear tactic or hard sell to convince me into jumping into a big financial decision like this. I have multiple assets and need to consider if I'm ready to open 12 LLC's after I was trying to downsize a bit. They definitely convince you that you need to but then other advice and attorney say that ultimately it can be found and pierced.
Is there a policy specific to cover you from Lawsuits?Would love to hear from some people that have hired as to whether or not you really get the attention you need. I have multiple property assets and other businesses and a HUGE amount of liability and decisions to make. Wondering if I will really get the facetime needed to answer all of these questions.
Laura, Errors and Omissions or a Directors and Officers policy can provide defense and payment for discrimination claims. The decision to which one is right for you is dependent on how your business is structured.
Both policies will have a starting deductible of $5,000 and have an annual premium of $1,000 - $2,500.
After reading through every single post here I've come to the conclusion that ABA is not the answer. Thank you to every honest person who added their valuable input.
I would also like to point out the suspicious nature of the accounts that posted positive reviews for ABA. Most having little to no other activity in the forum (red flag). Some having no profile picture (red flag). Having no awards showing other utilization of the website (red flag).
I'm thinking I'll start out with a single LLC in my state, and use land trusts when closing. I just need to figure out exactly how to structure my LLC and operations agreement. Then how to execute with the documentation to avoid DOS from start to finish.
I'm planning to BRRRR residential multi-family for buy and hold / cash flow. There might also be the occasional SFH flip, but not likely.
Again I can't thank you enough for the invaluable help and guidance everyone provides in this community. It truly is a beautiful thing. If anyone can further steer me in the proper direction I would be eternally grateful.
Best regards,
Originally posted by @Jonathan Killam:After reading through every single post here I've come to the conclusion that ABA is not the answer. Thank you to every honest person who added their valuable input.
I would also like to point out the suspicious nature of the accounts that posted positive reviews for ABA. Most having little to no other activity in the forum (red flag). Some having no profile picture (red flag). Having no awards showing other utilization of the website (red flag).
I'm thinking I'll start out with a single LLC in my state, and use land trusts when closing. I just need to figure out exactly how to structure my LLC and operations agreement. Then how to execute with the documentation to avoid DOS from start to finish.
I'm planning to BRRRR residential multi-family for buy and hold / cash flow. There might also be the occasional SFH flip, but not likely.
Again I can't thank you enough for the invaluable help and guidance everyone provides in this community. It truly is a beautiful thing. If anyone can further steer me in the proper direction I would be eternally grateful.
Best regards,
I made the same conclusion over a year ago. One more comment I'll add that you don't see mentioned very often regarding asset protection; LTV. If your LTV is relatively high (let's say above 65% - although 65 wouldn't be considered "high") there's not enough meat left on the bones after your lender takes their first position portion if the asset is forced to be sold. Also, as is probably mentioned in a previous post; if your net worth is less than a million dollars then you really don't need what Anderson is offering especially if you carry enough liability insurance. Finally, if you're proactive in following the proper rules for the management of an LLC then you can't be guilty of piercing the veil in order to protect that asset.
Originally posted by @Matthew McNeil:Originally posted by @Jonathan Killam:After reading through every single post here I've come to the conclusion that ABA is not the answer. Thank you to every honest person who added their valuable input.
I would also like to point out the suspicious nature of the accounts that posted positive reviews for ABA. Most having little to no other activity in the forum (red flag). Some having no profile picture (red flag). Having no awards showing other utilization of the website (red flag).
I'm thinking I'll start out with a single LLC in my state, and use land trusts when closing. I just need to figure out exactly how to structure my LLC and operations agreement. Then how to execute with the documentation to avoid DOS from start to finish.
I'm planning to BRRRR residential multi-family for buy and hold / cash flow. There might also be the occasional SFH flip, but not likely.
Again I can't thank you enough for the invaluable help and guidance everyone provides in this community. It truly is a beautiful thing. If anyone can further steer me in the proper direction I would be eternally grateful.
Best regards,
I made the same conclusion over a year ago. One more comment I'll add that you don't see mentioned very often regarding asset protection; LTV. If your LTV is relatively high (let's say above 65% - although 65 wouldn't be considered "high") there's not enough meat left on the bones after your lender takes their first position portion if the asset is forced to be sold. Also, as is probably mentioned in a previous post; if your net worth is less than a million dollars then you really don't need what Anderson is offering especially if you carry enough liability insurance. Finally, if you're proactive in following the proper rules for the management of an LLC then you can't be guilty of piercing the veil in order to protect that asset.
Thank you Matthew.
I should have mentioned that I fully intend to leverage my properties.
Best regards,
I have learned allot from ABA biweekly free tax Tuesday webinars and they have been very helpful answering question on those calls. The suspicious reviews on here and FB along with there very high rates has kept me on the sideline. I’m still searching for a company to handle my asset protection strategy. Looked into corporate direct as well and was turned off by the lack of customer service from there sales/intake team.
I made an appointment on the phone, arrived on time and the lady Kelly who was supposed to meet us did not show up. We were offered water and coffee while waiting and never got any. After 15 minutes of waiting for Kelly (LV Rainbow location) the lady at the front desk told us Kelly is at a 2-day seminar and will not be showing up. The receptionist said she sent emails and called to tell me she cannot be there. I told here I did not get any messages nor email. Then the receptionist looked at me as if I am at fault. She NEVER apologized. I walked out. Thinking my cell phone is not working and maybe I missed some emails, I went back home to check my emails on my laptop and did not see a single email from them. Very bad customer service and the sales rep lied to protect themselves. Their beginning package is $2450 set up fee plus $35 per month. Pay it if you are interested in this kind of service.
I think Anderson Advisors has a good knowledge of LLC's and other entities. However, I have had such an amazingly bad experience with the company in general I have ceased doing business with them and are considering legal action. I have spent 10's of thousands of dollars in legal fees, setting up LLC's corporations, etc., book-keeping and tax fees. The book-keeping and taxes they have made so many mistakes, we are still trying to sort them out. I was told by the IRS today that the 2553 form (whatever that is) was filed for one of my companies incorrectly twice. Subsequently, the 1120S form was rejected by the IRS for that company. My wife's company has problems with the State taxes, that we notified Anderson about, but which they apparently never fixed. Now we are being taxed on the incorrect information. A ridiculous number of mistakes that a book-keeper, let alone a tax preparer should NEVER make, incredibly poor communication, and what is worst, absolute disregard for taking any responsibility for their mistakes.
What are some more affordable alternatives? I am looking for a "done for me" solution to get my entities structured properly, and for continued support as I continue to add properties to my portfolio.
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Real Estate Agent WASHINGTON (WA) (#95024)
- Sound Home Buyer
I’m with you, Ryan. I’m new to this (I now have 4 properties after a 1031 Exchange), so I’m trying to learn as much as possible, all while protecting what I have. I talked to ABA, and was told I needed a minimum of 4 Land Trusts, 5 LLCs and a C Corp; as a newbie, that sounds like a lot of work and upkeep. They say they’ll take care of it all, but it’s s a lot of money (quoted $13,000 plus filing fees). I think I caught the investing bug, so I’d like to do more of it in the future, but shelling out that amount of cash puts a damper on those plans.
Three of the purchase closings were handled by one attorney’s office. I was thinking of contacting them to see if they could assist in this. Is that a good idea? I’m sure they’d be more affordable, but they likely don’t have an on-staff CPA or tax advisor. Being a small investor, do I really need that level of involvement?
Originally posted by @Wilco Ravestijn:I've recently enrolled in the Anderson system and so far I'm really pleased. It wasn't cheap however, one of the main reason I did it was because they combine their legal and tax teams to figure out the right strategy customized to your situation and goals. I've spent so much time and money with Attorneys setting up a legal strategy and they'd tell me to go find a CPA who in turn would offer tax advice contrary to how my legal entities were structured. These 2 departments usually don't converse well with each other. At Anderson they do and are strategically integrated in the overall strategy.
Another major factor that makes sense is that they don't charge hourly. Ofcourse it's a heafty chunk upfront but to me I like this. That means in theory, you become a priority. Essentially I'm buying into a strategic partner who is now vested in me. I'm big on building a life team and I needed someone like these guys in my corner. Included in my membership is unlimited tax or legal questions, Unlimited LLC set up, Document review up to 2x 15 page documents per month. This I was excited about because it saves me money. I usually end up spending $100+ with attorneys for simple questions and often they don't know my set up.
The way I broke down my decision to move forward with them was that I looked at how much I had to lose were there ever a situation that arose that I need asset protection and how much I gained in tax savings as well. Like insurance, you pay thousands of $$$ over the course of years where nothing happens, and then 1 incident happens and all of it pays for itself. That's how I justified the upfront cost. If you don't have a big enough asset base yet, wait until you do. Probably 5 years ago, I wasn't ready to sign on with them. But if you have enough to lose, why would you want to risk it by going cheap and patching things up disjointed here. It really is a complete system and I like that. I can go to 1 place and get this part of my life and business taken care of with confidence.
Hope this helps.
I am considering retaining ABA and wondered if you're still with them and satisfied since your post was 2 years back. Would appreciate the feedback.