All Forum Posts by: Cornelius Garland

Here is my 2 cents. I would only call the first number from your list and get through as many unique property records as possible. When I worked for a bigger wholesaling company in Charlotte, I realized that volume was key. It may seem wasteful, but you give yourself a better chance to "catch more fish" with a bigger net. Also, you can burn out your list fairly quickly if you're calling them daily. My vote is for Option A.

Thanks for the feedback, David. It's always great comparing KPIs because I tend to get stuck in my own world when marketing.

I use REI Reply for texting and Batch for Dialing. Very solid numbers you have. Are you skip tracing the same list when you retarget or just adding new records? If the latter, how many new seller records or phone numbers are you adding? A consistent 12% response rate is bonkers, though!

125 leads to contract check out with cold calling. When I tell people that it takes 100+ leads to get a deal from cold calling, they look at me like I'm crazy lol. Luckily, it's easy to outsource cold calling these days so all I do is vet the leads when they come into my CRM.

Is it just you or do you have a team? Very tight operation you have going on. You get it - you understand that hitting high volume is key. Thanks for posting your KPIs as it helps me corroborate my stats as well. #salute

A couple of things to consider. KPIs actually look good outside of the Calls to leads. Typically, 800 - 1100 dials should convert to one lead. The first week, it looks like it took close to 2k dials to generate a lead. This is eating up your phone numbers. Some things to consider: Switching your dialer. Xencall/ReadyMode and Mojo are not efficient dialers - they eat up your phone numbers rather quickly. Additionally, if you're using Filipino VAs then the results will be subpar.

I switched to Batchdialer after trying several dialers since 2019. I've used Five9, Xencall, CallTools, and Mojo. Each one has their season and it appears the more users they have, the less efficient the dialer is. Perhaps, with their "AI" capabilities, they are filtering out sellers that have been dialed a lot across every user account. This is just my personal opinion and not a fact.

Also, your marketing list and data are so important. I tend to go to secondary areas with a lot of homes sold but in the second-most popular county in my MSA. For instance, if I'm targeting Tampa and encountering the same issue, I would pull my list from zip codes Pinellas County (Population 956k) instead of Hillsborough (Population 1.4MM).

Also, if you're using PropStream or other software to pull your list then everybody in your market is basically targeting the same combination of sellers. There isn't one single factor that will cause your campaigns to suddenly start performing well. Small tweaks will get you there. You're on the right track.

Your abandonment rates are good - these should stay below 3% to remain compliant. Also, your calls to connect should be at 15 or below. Once this creeps past 20 then it's time to get a new list.

Great post and question. Cold calling is my main marketing channel and it took a few years to optimize it to the point where I'm getting results consistently.

There isn't a magic bullet for getting the results you want. Firstly, I'd like to set the proper expectation for connection rates. If you are working with a freshly pulled and skip-traced list then your connection rate should be 20% for the first week of dialing. Using high-quality phone numbers is important. As of this post, if a skip tracing service is charging 8 cents to 15 cents per record then I'd say this is good data. Any price lower than this is a toss-up as far as how recently the data is updated.

Your dialer should have phone numbers/DIDs that are specific to the area code you are calling. If you're in North Carolina then try to use an NC area code. If you're not able to, a toll free number works.

Choosing the right triple-line dialer is important as well. Not all of them are created equally. I've tried Xencall/ReadyMode, CallTools, Five9, and a slew of others. I've found that Batch Dialer is working well. Some of these dialers eat your phone numbers up very quickly. Xencall was really bad about this before I switched a few years back.

There are so many tweaks you can do but each change will only optimize your campaign by 1% to 5%. It's important to make one change at a time. If you're using a different list-pulling provider, skip tracer, dialer, and type of list each month then it's hard to pinpoint what the issue is.

Good day!

This has been on my mind to discuss as I get asked this question often. Why is this important? Simply put, you can overspend on your marketing campaigns if you're pulling a new list of 10,000 sellers weekly. Also, if you're pulling too few seller records then it will take you longer to generate a sufficient amount of leads in order to close one deal.

A key indicator to know if you need to change your marketing list is if your response rates start decreasing. Even if you're getting a lot of "no" responses or "not interested" responses, you're at least getting feedback from your marketing list.

For every marketing channel, especially text messaging, you will experience the most responses the first time you market to your list. For instance, if you send out 1,000 text messages, you can expect 50 responses (5%) on a brand-new skip-traced list. If you message these same sellers next week or next month then your response rates will likely be around 3% then drop to 2% and eventually nobody will respond back. This is normal attrition, and this is why it is imperative to reload your proverbial rifle with new bullets every month. Essentially, skip trace new records and upload them into your texting tool or dialer. If you're having trouble in your wholesaling business, please look at your marketing first as this is likely the root of many of your issues - especially if you are new or closing less than 2 deals per month. It's important to stabilize your company first before thinking about adding acquisitions managers, virtual assistants, and JV partners. Get your house in order first and focus on the fundamentals, which is marketing.

Let's get into the numbers:
Direct Mail - You can target the same list of sellers for 3-6 months before your response rates decrease significantly. Average response rates are .5% - 1%. Expect 5 - 10 responses. The average lead temperature is "warm" for direct mail and it takes about 40 leads to convert one into a deal, so it is not worth your time to do direct mail unless you can commit to at least 4,000 mailers per month. The good thing about direct mail is that the lists don't burn out as quickly, so you can market to it for 3 months, easily.

Texting Messaging: Cold text messaging is risky these days if you aren't using tools specifically designed for cold outreach for investors. Most tools that aren't part of our industry are cracking down big time on cold text messaging and the TCPA laws aren't helping our efforts either. Text messaging is best for new investors looking to get their first deal but it is not scalable. Honestly, I don't feel safe building my marketing campaigns solely on text messaging because, like Facebook ads early on, there are a lot of adjustments being made to ensure people aren't abusing this marketing channel. However, it is excellent to use to get your first deal. Lists do burn out VERY quickly, so view your texting lists like a "blast" rather than something you'll hit every week. Use texting to reach out to low-hanging fruit. And also, it is totally fine to text your list at the same time you're cold calling it. Yes, some sellers will get double-tapped but these same sellers are likely getting called by other investors. If you're taking the time to segment your list like this, sellers won't even notice. It'll just put more work on yourself.

Expect a 5% response rate on your first text messaging campaign on a newly pulled and freshly skip-traced list. So if you're messaging 1,000 sellers then expect 50 responses back. I'd wait at least two weeks before hitting these same 1,000 sellers again. Truthfully, my texting lists are one-and-done. After I message them, I rarely message them again, unless 6 months have elapsed. Even then, I found that the phone numbers typically are bad and I need to skip trace it again. By this time, I'm better off just pulling a new list and skip-tracing it. You can expect to convert 1 out of 25 / 50 leads (if a new wholesaler) with text messaging. I have another KPI I track with texting called my "Motivated Seller Response Rate". This is the response rate of "yes" or "interested" responses. It's quite low but has stayed true for years - .2% - .4%. So if you send off 1,000 messages, expect to get 2 interested responses. If you're getting 2 "interested/yes" responses per day, you can expect to contract a property using text messaging marketing within 3 weeks of your first campaign. It's important to note that you cannot target the same combination of sellers per day. This is where text messaging can get costly. You'll need new data every single day you target, which is why I recommend new wholesalers start off with a 10,000 records list, so they're not scrambling for data in the middle of the month. You could end up pausing your campaign and significantly stalling your momentum. Although your numbers may look different from mine, I'm sharing with you the average estimates I have in my database going back to the Summer of 2018, when I sent my first text messaging campaign to a list in Tampa, FL.

Cold Calling: This is by far my favorite marketing channel. A list of 10,000 sellers typically lasts for 45-60 days. Right now, I'm using Batch Dialer and seeing great results. It does take about 2-3 days for my dialer to "warm up" on new campaigns, but once I'm rolling it is very much a hands-off experience. The KPIs and lead flow I experience from cold calling have just been so consistent over the last several years. I started cold calling heavily in 2019 and decided to make it my primary marketing channel. I'll admit, the majority of the leads are cold and I need to follow up with them but if I pull 10,000 records, I've found that this gives me enough opportunity or "luck" to find at least one seller looking to sell for my cash offer and willing to sign a contract with me once I reach out. These sellers typically have been hit up by investors for years and you're piggybacking off of other investors' cold-calling efforts. Think about this: If you're calling a list of sellers and over half of them are on other marketing lists, this can work in your favor. Some wholesalers call these folks once and give them an offer and never follow up. By now, most people are outsourcing their cold calling, so legit all of our companies sound the same to the seller. It's too easy to slide in a call and the seller mistakes you for another company they spoke to. This happens a lot and I just go with it. I've gotten so many contacts this way. Expect 50 - 100 leads needed to close a contract cold calling. It sounds like a lot of leads but most investors are outsourcing cold calling just like their direct mail.

The image below illustrates the main points I'm touching on. We can see that direct mail gives us the most bang for our buck long term, but the leads will trickle in slowly. Again I prefer cold calling because it's right in the middle. The list lasts longer than a month and I'm able to generate guarantee a sizeable number of leads from my marketing efforts. Texting is always a short-term play and not a foundational piece of my marketing campaigns. If I get deals from it, great. If not, it's not necessarily the end of the world for me. The health of my marketing campaigns is dependent on how well my cold-calling campaigns are doing. More cold-calling leads usually result in a better month deal-wise for my team.

Let me know if you have any follow-up questions or request me to clarify any points in my message.

Great question, Zac. I use a CRM called Investorfuse to centralize my leads. Here's my workflow: My cold callers in Central America qualify leads on my behalf, saving me time. Their task is to ensure leads are cooperative and not demanding an exorbitant price for their house. I also have my team ask sellers resistance-testing questions. For instance, if sellers resist sharing information about mortgage payoff or tenant payments, my team follows up before sending it to me.

I'm explaining this because it helps manage fewer, yet highly qualified leads. If I had 1,000 sellers with varying motivation levels in my CRM (ranging from dormant to super hot), I could waste time calling those not ready to sell. I aim to keep my CRM free from "junk" by having strict guidelines for defining leads.

Here's a trick I use: My team labels leads as "cold," "warm," or "hot." Our effort level depends on this label. If someone wants $300k for a house worth $300k renovated, we reach out. However, I enter the call knowing the seller is likely a follow-up lead. This doesn't mean they're uninterested - just that they might need time before deciding to sell. I've followed up with sellers for up to 3 years and successfully contracted properties. Consistency is key.

I have a dedicated virtual assistant for lead management, mainly follow-ups. His goal is to maintain relationships with sellers after my cold-calling team qualifies them.

I hope this clarifies things. Feel free to ask follow-up questions, as I've pondered this extensively over the years. In 2020, I finally devised a reliable process that works for me and my partners.

I love cold calling. I found that the time block after lunch, like around 2 PM to 4 PM is very slow. If I had to choose the best time blocks to call, it would be 11 AM - 1 PM and 5 PM - 8 PM local time (wherever the majority of the sellers on your list live).

I've been dialing since 2019 and found that Wednesdays are by far my slowest days for leads. If you had to skip a day, I'd skip Wednesday and call on Saturday instead. We get twice as many leads, on average, on the weekend. Hope this helps out.

@Duane Alexander Hey Duane, what dialer are you using right now? The ones, like Mojo, that have you manually input your dispositions will have a lower contact rate. In ReadyMode (formerly Xencalll), they update your contact rate automatically. I've been averaging 20% on ReadyMode; however, on Mojo, 2% is the average. I hope that makes sense as the dialers all have their own definitions of what counts as a connection.

Regarding KPIs, I only track a few for my cold callers. I monitor their connections per day and how many leads they generate per day. On average, a cold caller can generate 1 - 3 leads per day. Anything additional is a bonus, but it's practically impossible to improve this number regardless of what tweaks you make. After doing millions of cold calls, this number has held steady for 3 years. They should be calling 8 hours per day to hit their lead goal. Regarding the connections, they should be getting around 250 - 400 per day. Too few cold calls indicate that they have a lot of downtime on their shift. If they have like 600+ connections then your dialer isn't optimized and it's going to blow through your data.

Let me know if you'd like for me to clarify.

@Duane Alexander I apologize for not seeing your message from a couple of weeks ago. I will answer all of your questions this weekend!

@Lea Fein Hey Lea! Yes, it's actually in Philly. The zip the properties are in is 19145. I definitely agree, the taxes are very high in NJ, which is why we're mainly wholesaling everything we get there even if the spreads are nice. I pick up cash-flowing properties down south just because I like being close to my assets. Also, as you mentioned, taxes are insane and that's true in most northern states.

Let me check with my JV partner on the agent piece. I know she has a solid realtor in Philadelphia but I'm unsure about the other areas. It wasn't until a couple of months ago that I suggested we market to the other states when we linked up. She was solely focused on Philidelphia so all of her contacts and infrastructure is there. Nonetheless, I'll still check and report back if she has someone for you.