Skip to content
×
Pro Members Get
Full Access!
Get off the sidelines and take action in real estate investing with BiggerPockets Pro. Our comprehensive suite of tools and resources minimize mistakes, support informed decisions, and propel you to success.
Advanced networking features
Market and Deal Finder tools
Property analysis calculators
Landlord Command Center
ANNUAL Save 16%
$32.50 /mo
$390 billed annualy
MONTHLY
$39 /mo
billed monthly
7 day free trial. Cancel anytime
×
Try Pro Features for Free
Start your 7 day free trial. Pick markets, find deals, analyze and manage properties.
All Forum Categories
All Forum Categories
Followed Discussions
Followed Categories
Followed People
Followed Locations
Market News & Data
General Info
Real Estate Strategies
Landlording & Rental Properties
Real Estate Professionals
Financial, Tax, & Legal
Real Estate Classifieds
Reviews & Feedback

All Forum Posts by: Davido Davido

Davido Davido has started 8 posts and replied 525 times.

Post: Killing it by turning crack dens into safe housing

Davido DavidoPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Olympia, WA
  • Posts 543
  • Votes 310

@Michael Ealy  Impressive rehab and excellent job on the video.  Did you have a professional do your video, or are you just that good?

Post: Killing it by turning crack dens into safe housing

Davido DavidoPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Olympia, WA
  • Posts 543
  • Votes 310

@Michael Ealy,  Thank you Michael. Wonderfully helpful post.

Post: Unusual Tax Question Is this money for nothing? Is it Tax Free?

Davido DavidoPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Olympia, WA
  • Posts 543
  • Votes 310

My sincere appreciation to all who have replied in this thread. This thread will be wound down as we move on to different posts and because the thread is already long and unwieldy. Anyone who replies after this post, should expect slower, shorter and less likely responses from me. There are a number of people who wrote thoughtful and insightful replies. I still plan to respond to you. And any reply from Real estate Attorney, Anne Fitzsimmons, will certainly be welcome and can be expected to receive a response from me.

These are lessons I’ve learned from you who have responded; 1) Develop and apply solid tax strategy immediately. 2)Review all my claims and promises and remove any (potentially) deceptive claims. 3). Many believe I could face criminal charges. 4) I really must define “Abandoned” and outline the requirements of Adverse Possession before discussing either.

1) I need to develop an income Tax Strategy ASAP. It is clear that I haven’t spent much time thinking about taxes. I assumed, that since the rental income was not mine and was not spent, I had no liability or reporting requirements. The replies here unanimously indicate otherwise. Alright. I will figure it out.

    A new post intended to delineate which acts create and the legal principles which define “income” can be found here. https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/51/topics/752652-neighborhood-cooperates-to-rent-abandoned-home-who-pays-taxes In that post I have separated each act that I normally perform in acquiring and renting abandoned RE. The new post assigns each separate act to a different individual in order to clearly identify which act or acts create liability. In addition, the new post puts all actions needed to rent abandoned RE into a sympathetic description of a group of neighbors working together to care for the apparently abandoned home of former neighbor. In that post, I appear only as a late speculator. I lose money in an unsuccessfully attempt to “steal” the home from the neighbors. Hopefully, those, who already have a distaste for my conduct, will focus their displeasure on me and provide an unemotional review of what, if anything, in the neighbor’s conduct constitutes generating an income that results reporting requirements and tax liability.

    2) The broad language of the Consumer Protection Act could be used against me. https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=19.86.020 “…unfair or deceptive practices in the conduct of commerce … are declared unlawful”. What is unfair? The State uses essentially the same definition as your kids, -anything they don’t like. My thanks to those who mentioned possible CPA problems. These replies were valuable because greater clarity can easily be added to my rental contract. I will redo my rental agreements to spell out my limited interest in the Abandoned properties that I rent. Then, I will post a copy. Any reader who is interested can decide for themselves, whether the contract is deceptive.

    3)  I could face criminal charges for taking over property that I do not own. Replies to this thread, and to any thread that discusses entering or renting Abandoned real estate, repeatedly suggest that I could be charged with Trespass, Theft, and/or Fraud. Those who make these comments are very likely accurate in ascribing criminal actions or criminal intent to the factual situation that they have pictured in their mind. However, the picture of facts that other BP posters create in their mind is rarely applicable to my conduct. Others may be concerned that entering abandoned real estate is criminal, but when any property is considered abandoned as a matter of law, entering is not trespass. I do have concerns about tax law. This post was primarily seeking answers to what tax must be paid and when.

    4)  I should always carefully define the term “Abandoned Real Estate” and outline the rules governing the application of Adverse Possession, before discussing those subjects in a forum or blog. The legal principles are arcane (understood by few).

    a) In this thread, I erred by not defining the terms at the beginning. “Abandoned Real Estate”, as used here, means real property for which the owner has intentionally given up all interest. It is not possible to trespass against someone who no longer has any interest in a property.

    b)  I also erred by not outlining and explaining the elements of Adverse Possession, and the legal principles and concepts required to understand how the law is applied to the facts. For example, in our state a claim of adverse possession requires that the person claiming it must have exclusive, continuous and uninterrupted possession for 10 years. Commenters repeatedly point out that a person, like me, who rents an abandoned property to a tenant, no longer has exclusive or continuous possession of the property. Such assertions are simply the commenter’s misunderstanding of what these elements of the law actually require. A tenant who rents from me, only has their possession through me. The tenants only right to possession is legally considered to flow from my superior right of possession.

    c) There are also appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what is “legal”, and of how our system is set up to function. I perceive a basic misapprehension of the law from those who ask, “What right do I have?” The underlying principle is that we the people have all the rights. Other replies simply state, “You have no right”. When the foundational law is that we the people have the only rights, and it is Government that has no authority, -unless we pass a law. A review of basic governing principles may be in order.

      Post: Neighborhood Cooperates to Rent Abandoned Home. Who Pays Taxes?

      Davido DavidoPosted
      • Rental Property Investor
      • Olympia, WA
      • Posts 543
      • Votes 310

      In this situation, $60,250 has been collected in rents over a 12-year period ($38,000 net), yet I cannot tell who, if anyone has a reporting or tax liability for the rents collected, or when their liability, if any, was incurred? Have the actions of any of the parties, caused them to incur a tax liability or duty to report income for the rents paid? If so, who. And when was their duty incurred?

      It is taken for granted that Trusted Services Homecare is liable to timely report and pay tax on all the payments that it received for providing yard care and maintenance services at Owner Gone’s property.

      It is also understood that Owner Gone would have been liable for taxes due on the accumulated rental income -if he had ever become aware of those rents and been given access to them.

      ____________________________________________________

      The American Story of 'Owner Gone'

      1. Owner Gone is a homeowner in a typical, but cooperative American neighborhood. Owner Gone left his home on a trip approximately 14 years ago. He has not yet returned. A group of neighboring property owners have each participated to some degree in maintaining Owner Gone’s property, or in preserving the rents that have been paid during his absence. None of the neighbors have been able to communicate with Owner Gone during the 14 years since he first left. Two skip tracing services and a private investigator were hired but have been unable to locate either Owner Gone or his next of kin.

      2. Next-door Neighbor mowed Owner Gone’s lawn for two years. Other-side Neighbor has collected Owner Gone’s mail (kept it in a basket near the entrance door), removed garbage from the property, cleaned gutters and performed a variety of other home maintenance chores. Both Next-door Neighbor, and Other-side Neighbor donated their time and efforts. They had always liked Owner Gone.

      3. Two years after Owner Gone left town, the nearby home of Mother-of-Two burned down. Mother-of-Two is a single woman with two teenage daughters. Next-door Neighbor saw an opportunity to get out of his self-imposed commitment to mow Owner Gone’s lawn. Next-door Neighbor convinced, the rest of the neighborhood that Mother-of-Two and her kids should occupy Owner Gone’s home -at least until she recovered financially from the fire and loss of her own home. It was common knowledge in the neighborhood that the key to Owner Gone’s home was under the front door matt.

      4. Mother-of-Two is employed. She was grateful to have a home and insisted on paying rent. All neighbors who have done anything in regard to Owner Gone’s home agreed that whether or not rent was paid, and the amount of the rent, if any, would be a matter between Owner Gone and Mother-of-Two. From the day Mother-of-Two moved in to Owner Gone’s home, Mother-of-Two has paid rent by placing $500 in cash on the 1st of each month into a jar kept in a kitchen cupboard of Owner Gone’s home.

      5. When Mother-of-Two and her daughters moved into Owner Gone’s home, Next-Door Neighbor stopped mowing Owner Gone’s lawn. At that time, Assertive-Neighbor knew that Mother-of-Two did not have a lawn mower. So, Assertive Neighbor decided on her own initiative to hire Trusted Services Homecare to mow Owner Gone’s lawn and to perform other chores necessary for the preservation of Owner Gone’s home. Assertive Neighbor then summarily decided that Trusted Services Homecare should be paid from the rent money that Mother-of-Two was depositing into the kitchen cupboard rent jar. Mother-of-Two expressed that she was neither for nor against this idea. Trusted Services Homecare has continuously provided lawn mowing and basic home maintenance services at the property of Owner Gone, ever since being hired by Assertive-Neighbor -twelve years ago.

      6. Shortly after, Assertive-Neighbor, engaged Trusted Services Homecare, she became frustrated with Mother-of-Two and ceased having any further involvement with Trusted Services Homecare or with the property of Owner Gone.

      7. At this point, none of the neighbors were directing the work of Trusted Services. Trusted Services Homecare used its own professional judgement to decide what work was reasonably necessary to maintain Owner Gone’s home. At no time has Mother-of-Two requested any of the services provided by Trusted Services Homecare. Mother-of-Two has refused to use any of the rent money she deposited into the jar in the kitchen cupboard at. Mother-of-two refused to pay Trusted Services for the maintenance work it did.

      8. Next-Door-Neighbor stepped up to receive and to pay the billing invoices from Trusted Services. Next-Door-Neighbor, personally put the bills from Trusted Services into the jar in the kitchen of Owner Gone’s home and took out cash sufficient to pay Trusted Services Homecare. Mother-of-Two, acquiesced to the will of her neighbors. Eventually, Trusted Services began placing its own bill for services in the jar in the kitchen cupboard. Trusted-Services also began to collect its own payments from the cash available in the jar. When necessary, Trusted Services Homecare would use the key under the matt, to enter the home.

      9. Just over three years after Owner Gone left his home, a notice was received of pending Property Tax Foreclosure against Owner Gone. Those neighbors involved with Owner Gone’s home could not come to agreement as to who, if anyone, should pay the past due property taxes. Most neighbors decided to just let the county foreclose. Eventually, Concerned-Neighbor, with the acquiescence of Mother-of-Two, went into the home, removed $2200 from the rent jar kept in the kitchen cupboard and paid the past due property taxes owed by Owner Gone. The property tax foreclosure action against Owner-Gone was then dropped.

      10. Approximately two years after first occupying Owner Gone’s home, Mother-of-Two remarried and prepared to move to the home of her new husband, along with her youngest daughter. This left the question of what to do with the remaining rents that had accumulated in the jar in the kitchen. Attorney Neighbor informed Mother-of-Two that all rents accumulated at Owner Gone’s property while he was gone would be recognized as the legal property of Owner Gone under state law. Mother-of-Two left the accumulated rents in the jar in the kitchen cupboard. She wrote a heartfelt thank you letter to Owner Gone and placed it in the rent jar.

      11. Concerned-Neighbor decided it was time to remove the accumulated rents (approximately $6650) from the again vacant home. Concerned-Neighbor opened a bank account in his own name to keep safe the rents belonging to Owner Gone (the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account). In order to enable oversight of the account, Concerned Neighbor convinced Next-Door-Neighbor and Other-Side-Neighbor to also each become signatories on the account.

      12. Mother-of-Two’s older daughter, Daughter Occupant (who was by then an adult), requested to continue occupying Owner Gone’s home, by herself. Daughter Occupant wanted to receive financial assistance from a housing program that required a written rental agreement before providing assistance. Daughter Occupant sought a written rental agreement. None of the neighbors were willing to provide a written agreement regarding Owner Gone’s home. Owner Gone was still absent.

      13. Just before Mother-of-Two moved to her new home, Attorney Neighbor informed Mother-of-Two that her occupancy of Owner Gone’s home for over two years created a tenancy which is protected under the law. Attorney Neighbor asserted that, while Mother-of-Two had absolutely no claim to title regarding Owner Gone’s property, her occupancy of the home did give her a legally cognizable beneficial interest to occupy the home. Attorney Neighbor, therefore, counseled that state law recognized Mother-of-Two could pass her beneficial interest (her tenancy) to whomever she chooses.

      14. Mother-of-Two, decided to pass her tenancy on to her daughter and prepared a written agreement for Daughter Occupant. The agreement stated that on date X, Mother-of-Two agreed to grant all her beneficial interest in the use of Owner Gone’s home to Daughter Occupant, provided that Daughter Occupant must continue depositing $500 per month into the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account previously opened by Concerned Neighbor. Mother-of-Two sought to ensure that Owner Gone’s interest in the home would continue to be protected. The rental agreement between Mother-of-Two and Daughter Occupant regarding the home of Owner Gone, was accepted by the Housing Program. Daughter-Occupant became the sole tenant.

      16. Shortly after Daughter Occupant assumed her tenancy in Owner Gone’s home, Next-Door Neighbor passed away. Next-Door-Neighbor’s widow was then made a signatory to the Safe-Keeping- Bank-Account. At that time, Trusted Services Homecare was also made a signatory on the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account. This was done in order to facilitate payment for the services it rendered. Trusted Services provided Daughter-Occupant a bill for its services, then Trusted Services paid itself by signing a check drawn on the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account. Since Daughter-Occupant wouldn’t spend any of Owner Gone’s money, even to pay the property taxes, the owner of Trusted Services Homecare decided he would pay the annual property taxes due on Owner Gone’s home, from funds in the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account.

      17. Both Concerned-Neighbor (who initially opened the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account) and Other-side Neighbor moved to another state. They therefore removed themselves from being signatories on the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account. The remaining signatories on the bank account were the widow of Next-door Neighbor and the owner of Trusted Services Homecare.

      16. Daughter-Occupant, set up a monthly automatic deposit of her rent payments directly into the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account each month. Trusted Services Homecare has continued to faithfully provided yard care and necessary maintenance for Owner Gone’s home. Trusted Services Homecare pays Owner Gone’s annual property tax bill, issues a monthly bill for its own services and then pays itself, from checks drawn on the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account that the owner of Trusted Services is a signatory on.

      18. Eventually, CPA Neighbor advised all parties that since rents were being paid, the rental income must be reported, and taxes must be paid on the rental income kept in the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account. This frightened Next-door Neighbor’s widow, who intended merely to help save Owner Gone’s homejjj. She clearly did not want any tax liability. Next-door Neighbor’s widow promptly removed herself as a signatory on the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account and ceased any further involvement with Owner Gone’s home.

      19. The comment of CPA Neighbor, and the action of Next-door Neighbor’s Widow’s frightened the owner of Trusted Services Homecare who then attempted to remove himself from being a signatory on the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account. However, the bank informed the owner of Trusted Services Homecare, that he was the last remaining signatory on the account, thus removing himself required closing the account. The owner of Trusted-Services Homecare declined to close the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account. He did not want to take responsibility for Owner Gone’s money.

      20. Daughter-Occupant, wanted to help the owner of Trusted Services Homecare, so she agreed to become the sole signatory on the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account that her rent was being paid into. The owner of Trusted Services Homecare was successfully removed from the account. Daughter-Occupant has taken no other actions in regard to the Safe-Keeping-Bank Account. She has never withdrawn funds, nor has she ever made a deposit. Her $500 per month rent payments are direct deposited by her rent assistance program. Daughter-Occupant does provide regular reports and updates to the rental assistance program staff, as required.

      21. Trusted Services Homecare continued to provide yard care and home maintenance services at the home of Owner Gone. After being removed as a signatory on the account, the owner of Trusted Services continued to sign the checks, drawn on the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account, as payment for its services and to pay Owner Gone’s property taxes. The check books had been issued to him when he was a signatory on the account. No one noticed that the owner of Trusted Services Homecare was no longer a signatory. No complaints were ever made about Trusted Services.

      22. Recently a sketchy investor named Money-for-Nothing heard about this situation. Investor, Money-for-Nothing discovered that the Bank holding the mortgage on Owner Gone’s property had chosen not to foreclose because of problems in obtaining a required “Certificate of Water Availability”. Some years back, the property had been required to connect to the city’s water service. Owner Gone had not done so. The city had a lien for the connection assessment, plus fines and years of accumulated interest. Owner Gone’s current right to continue using the water well serving his home would not survive a transfer of ownership.

      23. Money-for-nothing informed the city he could finally get Owner Gone’s property connected to City water as required, provided the City would waive all the fines and interest due on the city’s utility lien. The City agreed. Money-for-Nothing then bought an assignment of the Bank’s mortgage for pennies on the dollar. He promptly filed an action to foreclose the old mortgage, and sent notice to the home of Owner Gone that he was foreclosing.

      24. Daughter-Occupant became distressed. She sought to prevent Money-for-Nothing from “stealing” Owner Gone’s home. Attorney Neighbor, advised the neighborhood that under state law only Owner Gone had standing to fight Money-for-Nothing’s foreclosure action. Owner gone was still absent. However, Attorney Neighbor opined that Daughter-Occupant could claim title to the property under the State laws of adverse possession.

      23. With Attorney Neighbor’s help, Daughter-Occupant, filed suit to Quiet Title in her name under the laws of adverse possession. After a hearing, the Court awarded Owner Gone’s home to Daughter-Occupant. The Court informed Money-for-Nothing that Daughter Occupant’s long possessory interest in the home was superior to his claim in equity, that as the new owner of the property, Daughter Occupant did have standing to plead the Statute of Limitations, that the mortgage Money-for-Nothing had bought was beyond the Statute of Limitations, and the Judge then ordered Money-for-Nothing to pay Daughter Occupant’s attorney fees, since she was the prevailing party. As a final matter the judge declared that, as the owner of the property, Daughter Occupant was entitled to all the “rents” kept in the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account (by then $38,000).

      24. The neighborhood had party to celebrate. Daughter Occupant continues to live in Owner Gone’s former home and she continues to reserve the Safe-Keeping-Bank-Account for Owner Gone’s eventual return. To this day she hasn’t spent a dime.

      ___________________________________________________

      My purpose in this tale is to identify accurately which of the actions described, if any, incurs a duty to report income or pay tax, by who, and when. The situation described is a composite from situations that I’ve encountered while involved with abandoned real estate. In this post I have intentionally separated each act that is normally done by me. In addition, the essential steps of my process for renting and maintaining real estate that has been abandoned by its owner, have each been assigned to a separate person. I seek to be clear on what act, or what combination of actions create a tax liability or an income reporting duty.

      Naturally, my ultimate goal is to structure the process of renting abandoned real estate so that both tax liability and income reporting requirements may be either avoided completely or at least delayed to a time entirely of my choosing. Those who are unfamiliar with the legal concept of intentional owner abandonment, will likely question the morality of renting real estate one does not own or have permission to use. Those questions are of course fundamental, but are best addressed in a separate post. Here my focus will be on identifying the tax related duty of the parties -if any.

      In a separate post, I have been told with considerable emphasis, that my activities related to abandoned real estate create an unequivocal tax liability for me. See: https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/51/topics/743817-unusual-tax-question-is-this-money-for-nothing-is-it-tax-free  The idea that I would incur a tax liability for rents that I have not spent, and which, as a matter of law, are not mine, or for properties that I do not own, was a foreign to me. However, the tax professionals on the BP forums (and all other commenters) have accurately pointed out that in regard to the abandoned properties I’m working, I’ve been the acting landlord. I am the one who is collecting the rents. And the rents are accruing in accounts held in my name. The professionals are therefore unanimously certain, that I have a current duty to report and pay taxes on rents that are not (yet) mine, -essentially because I caused and collected the rents and may one day acquire the right to spend them. If that is true, it’s time to change my system.

      Of course, I understand that the IRS defines rent as income. I also understand and acknowledge the general IRS authority declaring that income is taxable and must be reported. The question for me is, which act(s) incur tax or reporting liability, for whom, and when? 

      Post: Killing it by turning crack dens into safe housing

      Davido DavidoPosted
      • Rental Property Investor
      • Olympia, WA
      • Posts 543
      • Votes 310

      @John Hickey the figures look promising, but too incomplete to analyze. Do you ever use the BP Rental Property Calculator, BRRRR Calculator, or Wholesaling Calculator? Anyone of those tools, if fully filled out, would provide the info needed to understand the potential of your projects.

      Post: Neighbor Says my Tenant is Berating Her and Her Son

      Davido DavidoPosted
      • Rental Property Investor
      • Olympia, WA
      • Posts 543
      • Votes 310

      @Dennis M. and @Tony Gunter  you are of course right that it is not Scott's responsibility to mediate disputes between a tenants or between a tenant and neighbor.  I agree that it is foolish to take onto ourselves the responsibilities that are not ours.  My point, was not that Scott is responsible to resolve the conflict, but rather that it is not necessary to avoid the existence of conflict (keep out toes out of those waters).  The problems of others, whether tenants or neighbors, are also an opportunity to offer positive interaction, as suggested by both Sharon and Bill.  Supportive interaction with others costs us virtually nothing, enhances respect for the landlord, and helps those who are involved in strife to bring out their better character.

      Since expressions of empathy, hearing out the person, and providing feedback cost only time, taking the opportunity to do so is good human relations, good landlord relations, and good business.  Tenants and neighbors who know you'll listen, believe you are fair and decent, become a valuable asset.  

      I admit to completely missing the idea of having them shake hands, hug and make up.  Good call Dennis.  Gold star.

      Post: Neighbor painted “my” trees, wants court

      Davido DavidoPosted
      • Rental Property Investor
      • Olympia, WA
      • Posts 543
      • Votes 310

      @Ch

      Post: Neighbor painted “my” trees, wants court

      Davido DavidoPosted
      • Rental Property Investor
      • Olympia, WA
      • Posts 543
      • Votes 310

      @Jo

      Post: SBA Loan vs Tax Deed in Washinton State

      Davido DavidoPosted
      • Rental Property Investor
      • Olympia, WA
      • Posts 543
      • Votes 310

      My thought is to contact the borrower. He/she should be able to tell you (and provide an affidavit) when the last payment was made.  

      I do not know how to find out from the SBA when the last payment was made. Would tell you if I did.  There is always a way, there is always another way, and there is always a better way.   

      You've mentioned very little about the property, but if the SBA has the first mortgage, then I would consider at least offering them 10 cents on the dollar for an assignment of their interest. My assumption is that the SBA loan will be wiped out at the tax sale. Seems to me that for the SBA, 10% now is better than nothing after the sale in a few months. Government doesn't usually think that way though.

      If you get an assignment of the mortgage, then controlling the SBA loan would be better for you too.  You'd be a lien holder and you'd be entitled to protect your lien by paying the back taxes so as to remove the property from the property tax sale. Then you could foreclose your new mortgage.  You could also get a judicial lien for the taxes you paid and you could add the amount paid on the property taxes to the amount due on the mortgage.  Then you'd bid the full amount you're owed for the SBA mortgage plus taxes paid plus cost, at your own foreclosure sale (with fewer bidders than the prop tax sale).  You'd either get the property for much less than it would cost at the highly competitive tax foreclosure sale, or if you were outbid, you'd get paid the full amount due on the SBA mortgage (900% return).   Getting an assignment of the SBA mortgage and foreclosing it yourself takes a little longer, but can be considerably cheaper.

      Just be careful the property is not a foreclosure exempt homestead residence -a large portion of which is exempt from foreclosure.   Good luck.  Let me know if anything works out.