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All Forum Posts by: William Coet

William Coet has started 207 posts and replied 570 times.

@Christian D.  Taken directly from bill:

"PURPOSE: To waive small business commercial and residential rent for 90 days" This is a permanent cancellation without requirement for reimbursement by the tenant or the government
Originally posted by @Christian D.:

Regarding renters and Landlords, nobody is getting anything for free from this bill, Tenants are not going to be given "free rent" and Landlords are not giving anything away for free. 

This bill is to defer rental payments for 90 days not to forfeit rental payments for 90 days. Tenants are still obligated to pay their Landlords the full rental amount outlined in their lease agreement before the end of their lease term. Landlords already know how much they can expect to receive in rent at the end of the Tenants lease term. It doesn't make a difference if you receive 12 monthly payments or 9 monthly payments the dollar figure doesn't change. 

Tenants will simply defer payments for the next three months and will have to make it up on the back end after things normalize. The question is, will things normalize in three months? And can tenants realistically afford to defer rental payments for three months onto the remaining term of their lease if they are unemployed (probably not). So now what? In order for a renter forbearance to work, you now need to move up the channel to Landlords and banks. Banks need to issue a forbearance to Landlords for 90 days so they can defer debt payments for three months. I believe this is also mentioned in the aforementioned bill.

Even if a bank issues a 90 day forbearance, the Landlords still owes these three months of debt payments they just don't go away. Nothing has been forfeited in terms of payment from the Tenant, Landlord or bank. Now you would think the banks would just follow suit and extend loans out three months on the back-end for Landlords? However, remember, you are also dealing with private and Non-QM lenders (who are just private investors) and are in the same position as you except they are at the end of the food chain.

It just comes down to the timing of payments with Tenants, and Landlords, and banks and who is allowed a temporary forbearance and who is not -- but nothing is being forfeited or given away for free. The annual rent the Tenant is obligated to pay the Landlord per their lease doesn't change, and the Landlords annual debt payments he/she is obligated to pay the lender on the property does not change.

Out of the 6 lenders I am working with only 1 has refused to issue me a forbearance on my properties and it's a commercial loan.

Also, i'm confused why people think the government would classify Landlords in the same bucket as small businesses when it comes to governmental assistance in a time like this. Again, a forbearance is simply a deferral and not a forfeiture, the government is not going to be as generous as issuing Landlords money. When you mandate the closure of a small business, there is no deferral on that businesses income, they simply lose it and how do you gauge how much income that business lost? The answer is you can't. That's exactly why all of these stimulus packages and loan programs are pivoted to small businesses.

 Your interpretation of the bill is incorrect.  It is a total cancellation (forfeiture) of rent.  It is not a deferral. This is why everyone is upset!

This is different than a small business being told to close.  This is telling the small business they have to stay open and give their product and labor away for free for 3 months without reimbursement!  This is the problem!  It is making people work without reimbursement (slavery). While the product (housing) is free, do the housing providers also not pay someone to mow the lawn, repair heating systems, repair plumbing systems, fix a roof leak? 

Again, there are unemployment benefits coming in force.  They have always been, and continue to be, intended for expenses such as rent.  

All NY housing providers need to organize and check out. 

https://www.underoneroofny.org

They are doing great advocacy work on this issue and others!

@Sam Cherry You're input and support on these issues is very good.  Thank you for your efforts.  I would like to add that most people who become unemployed will be eligible for additional unemployment benefits (enhanced unemployment) and will be earning more than they were while working.  These unemployment benefits have been, and are now, intended for expenses such as rent.  So in that sense, nothing is different here.

Is this along the lines of what you are suggesting for tenants to receive payment support directly from the government?

https://www.naahq.org/advocacy...

-A friend works for NYS Department of Labor and has told me that with the enhanced unemployment benefits there will be unemployed people making more than her.

-I know of a plant manager who is losing workers because they've done the math and will be making more on unemployment with the increased stimulus payments.

-Unemployment benefits are intended for expenses like food, transportation (many will be saving on that) and rent.  This time is no different.

-I suppose if rent isn't paid, plumbing and heating won't get fixed, heat bills won't get paid, property taxes won't get paid, roads won't get plowed, schools won't get funded....you get the picture. 


Originally posted by @Franky Aikens:

I've been reading through the comments of the livid landlords about this new bill. Totally understand why they'd be up in arms. The originator of this post called it "theft" by the government. It was also assumed and stated that there wouldn't be any relief for the landlords, only the tenants.

But then I read through the proposed bill on the NY State Senate Bill site I found the language below. Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to the language below, landlords WILL get relief and the form of suspended mortgage payments for the same length of time rents will be suspended. Am I missing something here?

(b) (i) Any person or entity who faces a financial hardship as a result of being deprived rent payments for property pursuant to this section shall receive forgiveness on any mortgage payments for such property for ninety days, in an amount determined by the following frac- tion multiplied by such mortgage payment, up to the total dollar amount of lost rent: (A) The numerator shall be the total amount of rent payments suspended for his or her tenants over the ninety day period laid out in this section

There is a long list of costs to own and operate housing and after all the expenses are paid many housing providers use what is left over for their own living expenses.  These expenses include property taxes (school, village/city, town and county) property insurance, regular maintenance contracts for things like lawn care and snow removal, maintenance reserves for unexpected repairs to plumbing, heating, etc and for large expense items like roofs, painting, and updates).  A mortgage payment is only a portion of the overall payments.  In NY State the property taxes are often higher than the mortgage. This bill only covers certain mortgages, and of those, it is not a full waiver all of the time.  This bill falls terribly short of reimbursing the providers of housing.  

In this case housing providers are being required to provide a service without compensation. This is like requiring a restaurant or grocery store to stay open for the next three months and serve all of its customers for free, with never being repaid.

If you carefully consider some of the implications and some of the recklessness of
the proposed bill you may feel differently. For example:

-Not only are people who become unemployed eligible for standard
unemployment, they are also eligible for enhanced stimulus unemployment,
and the one time stimulus check. Many of these people will be earning
more than they were before. For example, I know of a plant manager who
is losing workers because they know they will be earning more with the
enhanced stimulus benefits. These enhanced benefits are being provided
by the government so that people can pay their expenses, not so that
they can stiff their housing provider. Unfortunately, this bill will
allow them to do exactly that.

-This bill allows anybody who has lost any amount of income to not pay rent for three months. It does not
consider people's ability to pay or the amount of income lost. Many
renters have savings (sometimes more than their housing provider). Many
people are working part time to keep busy and are financially stable (retired
people, students gaining work experience for a resume and whose parents are funding them, etc) and this will allow them to withhold payments to their housing provider regardless of their financial situation and ability to pay.

-This bill places a massive burden only housing providers shoulders.
It does not require any other provider of a service or product that
people use to be provided for free for three months with no
reimbursement. It does not require grocery stores or restaurants to
serve people for three months without reimbursement.

-Self-employed housing providers are not eligible for unemployment
benefits, and for many of them the small percentage of revenue that is
left after expenses is their only income. An SBA loan is not a benefit,
it is more debt that must be repaid. Unemployment benefits that
unemployed people will be receiving are not repayable.

-The government should be subsidizing the rent if they are going to
deny it to people, and ensuring that people who are receiving
unemployment benefits use them responsibly.  They can set up a section 8 style program so that this bill doesn't cause more economic problems for housing providers and the taxing entities, employees, insurers,and contractors that rely on them for payments.

-This is a reckless and poorly drafted bill that will do more harm than good.

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

I'm not saying it's perfect or it's going to solve the issue for every Landlord. However, it's unrealistic to think you can buy an investment property and the world will always pay your bills without interruption.

BiggerPockets preaches it over, and over, and over again. Investors should be financially disciplined. Don't spend your last dime on an investment. Don't over-leverage. Set aside a reserve. Be prepared for the market to turn.

In an emergency, Landlords can delay tax payments for 6-12 months without incurring much of a fee. They usually pay insurance in advance and it may not even be due for another 6-12 months. Maintenance contracts can be stopped and Landlords can limit maintenance to emergency issues only for the next 3-4 months. 

A lack of rent income for 3-4 months should be survivable. If a Landlord can't survive this current situation, they're probably due to fail in any economic downturn.

Please condsider that this is about much more than someones ability to have reserves. Aside from the obvious deficiencies and inequities of the proposed bill, it is critical to understand the political environment and the political gain that is involved.  In NYC there is currently a movement of politicians and tenant advocates who promote the idea that housing should be completely controlled by the government.  They call themselves Democratic Socialists, and if they get their way NYC will look like North Korea or Havana, Cuba sooner than later.  These politicians promote policies for NYC that become statewide.  These policies are often very damaging to small town /small scale housing providers in the rest of the state. They are exploiting people's lack of understanding of the costs and necessities to own and operate housing.  They are getting votes to secure their own taxpayer funded incomes and health insurance costs.  If you read comments, this bill is considered a step towards more government control of housing.  We know that rent control and excessive government control of housing actually harms low income people, but the politicians who promote it don't care; they want votes and their taxpayer funded jobs to be secured

In this case housing providers are being required to provide a service without compensation.  This is like requiring a restaurant to stay open for the next three months and serve all of its customers without being paid.

If you carefully consider the implications and some of the recklessness of
the proposed bill you may feel differently. For example:

-Not only are people who become unemployed eligible for standard
unemployment, they are also eligible for enhanced stimulus unemployment,
and the one time stimulus check. Many of these people will be earning
more than they were before. For example, I know of a plant manager who
is losing workers because they know they will be earning more with the
enhanced stimulus benefits. These enhanced benefits are being provided
by the government so that people can pay their expenses, not so that
they can stiff their housing provider. Unfortunately, this bill will
allow them to do exactly that.

-This bill allows anybody who has lost any amount of income to not pay rent for three months. It does not
consider people's ability to pay or the amount of income lost. Many
renters have savings (sometimes more than their housing provider). Many
people are working part time to keep busy and are financially stable (retired
people, students gaining work experience for a resume and whose parents are funding them, etc) and this will allow them to withhold payments to their housing provider regardless of their financial situation and ability to pay.

-This bill places a massive burden only housing providers shoulders.
It does not require any other provider of a service or product that
people use to be provided for free for three months with no
reimbursement. It does not require grocery stores or restaurants to
serve people for three months without reimbursement.

-Self-employed housing providers are not eligible for unemployment
benefits, and for many of them the small percentage of revenue that is
left after expenses is their only income. An SBA loan is not a benefit,
it is more debt that must be repaid. Unemployment benefits that
unemployed people will be receiving are not repayable.

-The government should be subsidizing the rent if they are going to
deny it to people, and ensuring that people who are receiving
unemployment benefits use them responsibly.

-This is a reckless and poorly drafted bill that will do more harm than good.

Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:

If rent is abated, there is likely a mortgage abatement for the same period. It's just kicking the can down the road.

 Unfortunately, it isn't kicking the can down the road.  It is creating a serious hardship for a portion of the our society.  It doesn't abate property tax payments, insurance payments, maintenance contract payments, maintenance costs, and doesn't replace income lost that housing providers rely on for their own living.  All of this with no reimbursement from the government that is proposing it.

Unemployed people are eligible for benefits (including stimulus bill enhanced payments) that don't need to be repaid, housing providers are not.

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Tony T.:

@Steve Kontos: Even if we had NO expenses, the state would be forcing us to give up our income directly to another citizen - that never happens without reimbursement. They haven't done that to any other business owners, large or small; I don't see how that's lawful or moral/ethical. No business has to give their product directly to another citizen freely ...except a property owner?

 Not correct. The government already mandated businesses to close, directly taking away income from MANY businesses. Is it lawful to force a restaurant to close, yet force them to pay rent to their landlord? Should a landlord be owed back-rent, when a business wasn't even legally allowed to operate? I am just putting the question out there. I think it sucks for all businesses, but you are acting as if you are the only one that this impacts. That comes off as either selfish or you are completely uniformed about what has been happening the last month.

Many people argue that rent control and eviction laws already take away landlords rights and income. You could argue taxes take away a businesses rights and income. Although a free rent bill would be radically worse, the point is income is already being taken. Many industries are regulated and controlled at the financial impact of the businesses. These controls impact income of the business in the name of what is good of society. Without society, you don't have customers, so many argue it is good for the businesses.

My best advice is work with your state landlord / multifamily association on fighting this. They will have a fund for lobbying and legal challenges. Support them with your money and band together. If you need money to sustain you, there are loan options available to impacted businesses. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the proposed bill. I think forbearance only for those affected would be more reasonable. It seems strange to offer free rent to everyone, including someone who has not lost income, as we know many people in NY are still fully employed. I doubt they will pass this law to cancel rent, because I believe there are legal ramifications. Even forcing other businesses to close will likely result in litigation in the coming months and years.

Whether it is this or other future anti-landlord legislation, you are choosing to bear massive risk by investing in a tenant friendly state. That is just something to consider as you move forward. I wish you the best and above all, I hope your family and friends stay safe. Wealth can be replaced, but our loved ones cannot.

If you carefully consider the implications and some of the recklessness of the proposed bill you may feel differently. For example:

-Not only are people who become unemployed eligible for standard unemployment, they are also eligible for enhanced stimulus unemployment, and the one time stimulus check.  Many of these people will be earning more than they were before.  For example, I know of a plant manager who is losing workers because they know they will be earning more with the enhanced stimulus benefits.  These enhanced benefits are being provided by the government so that people can pay their expenses, not so that they can stiff their housing provider.  Unfortunately, this bill will allow them to do exactly that.

-This bill allows anybody who has lost any amount of income to not pay rent for three months.  It does not consider people's ability to pay or the amount of income lost.  Many renters have savings (sometimes more than their housing provider).  Many people who are financially stable are working part time (retired people, students whose parents are funding them, etc) and this will allow them to withhold payments to their housing provider, but this bill does that.

-This bill places a massive burden only housing providers shoulders.  It does not require any other provider of a service or product that people use to be provided for free for three months with no reimbursement.  It does not require grocery stores or restaurants to serve people for three months without reimbursement.

-Self-employed housing providers are not eligible for unemployment benefits, and for many of them the small percentage of revenue that is left after expenses is their only income.  An SBA loan is not a benefit, it is more debt that must be repaid.  Unemployment benefits that unemployed people will be receiving are not repayable.

-The government should be subsidizing the rent if they are going to deny it to people, and ensuring that people who are receiving unemployment benefits use them responsibly.

-This is a reckless and poorly drafted bill that will do more harm than good.

-

Originally posted by @Lokesh W.:

In Wisconsin, there is similar bill for 60 days. My lender says pay mortgage using reserves. In WI, there will be no eviction or foreclosure for 60 days. Any suggestions?


You have to get the word out that loss of income caused by any legislation needs to be replaced in a way that doesn't force you into more debt. The government needs to reimburse for whatever income they are denying.  
Contact all landlord associations and find out what they are doing, and what can be done.
Contact all representatives involved. Call and email.