All Forum Posts by: Russell Holmes

@Evan Kiggen and @Shawn G. thanks for the replies!  I had almost forgot I made this post with the lack of replies it got, haha.  Shawn's right though, all the hype going toward Orlando is great for those of us searching the outskirts.  

By the way, Evan, I highly recommend checking out the Orlando meetup Shawn and a few other locals coordinate on a monthly basis: https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/521/topics/704331-central-florida-real-estate-investment-hub-meetup I'm a regular attender but can't take any credit for how incredible it is, I'm in awe every month.

The first few were a handful of people talking Real Estate at a local diner.  Now it has swelled to what, 35 people or so Shawn?  I think there are 60+ in the group chat app, but not all can make each meeting.   We've got speakers scheduled each month and ongoing conversation in a group chat app between meetings.  Several members of the group work together on different projects and share freely. Some self manage condos and others syndicate apartment complexes.  Just last week an incredible property manager spent several hours teaching us all how we could feasibly manage properties ourselves, thereby not needing her services.  Sure down the road with too many doors it may circle back to her for clients, but where else does a PM share their secrets and say "you can do this without me!".  The meeting last month was several members of the group doing a 'deep dive' into their deals and next month is an Attorney.  

@Steve Hall I can't say how much I appreciate your advice here! I'm sure all of this info is floating around BP somewhere, but you summarizing it all as it relates to this situation is excellent. After reading your link to Olmstead v FTC and then your explanation for out of state LLC involvement, it makes perfect sense. I have owned a single member LLC for a service business for many years, but without many assets to protect it was really for ease of tax reporting, EIN separate from my personal social, and still easy taxes with a schedule C. For that business I never looked much into the protection aspects because it wasn't an asset-heavy business and I carried much more liability insurance than would ever be necessary due to client requirements. I ran it as a sole proprietor DBA for years before forming the LLC and realized that it really wasn't much different in anything but title without a partnership within the LLC.

As for how you would split the equity if cash is left in, that makes a lot more sense than my rough method and I will propose this method of split that properly accounts for purchase capital vs rehab.  It properly puts the burden of staying on budget on my shoulders, which I think is where it should rest squarely if I'm running the rehab.  If I run it bad and go over on a $20k rehab budget by $10k, I think I'd fully expect and deserve to have my share cut from 50% to 16.5%. Both mathematically and reasonably this method puts the burden and reward in the proper places.  

  In our conversations we hadn't dug too deep into how the ownership split would work with cash left in the deals, but we did talk about the possibility of that happening and needing to figure it out. With flips it isn't really an issue, but BRRRRs we would need to have it established from the start.  I suggested what I did above, but said that we'd run some scenarios and talk with the Attorney before agreeing on what's best.   It was a bullet point to address with the attorney for sure.

At the end of the day, I'm very flexible on how this is all structured since it is not my capital. My Mom was a founding partner of a CPA firm for nearly 20 years before retiring, while her other two equal partners continued on with the business.  It got quite messy towards the end due to the casual partnership agreement in the beginning.  They started small and grew rapidly, acquiring other smaller firms and debt in the process.   I believe they did over $6M in revenue the year she retired and were trying to enter into six-figure debt acquisitions as she was trying to leave. They were growing like a tech company when she was trying to exit and it almost lead to litigation before eventually reaching amicable agreement on terms.   Things that weren't on their radar those first days spoiled some friendships at the end, so I've always been weary of partnerships and happy to hear JVs work well in this scenario.    I want to make sure we've considered all angles and we start off on the right foot to be able to scale in a mutually beneficial way and not have to come back to the table on these foundation level issues.  If I don't do right by his capital, there's no reason he'd continue the relationship long term. So it is in my best interest to also look out for his best interests.

Again, I really appreciate the advice. I've been on BP a year longer than I've been licensed and if it weren't for experts in every field freely sharing their knowledge here, I surely would not have pursued a license, a full time career shift to real estate sales, or be where I am today looking into JV flips and BRRRRs.

@Steve Hall I'm on board with the FL holding company structure you mention, just curious to the benefit of my FL holding company being owned by one I also have in a state I don't live in. Intriguing for sure if there's a benefit to it!

@Steve Hall I appreciate the input. You are right, I'm absolutely not ready for this right at this moment, but that's why I've posted about it at least two months ahead of time while I'm simultaneously also reading on Land Trusts and planning meetings with the attorney. I want to gather all the information I can ahead of time. I'm not jumping into this at this moment and I think my partner and I both know there are lots of things to get straight on the legal structure side. Our initial meeting about this partnership or JV was really to put pen to paper and figure out what those concepts would be to put in front of the Attorney, in other words, what would we each be willing to do and looking to get out of it. We're going to take the remaining time on this current flip to get all of the legal structure details figured out for the next, since this current flip is fully his, any profit share later being by his choosing/free will. I do realize that a partnership and JV are different animals, but I didn't know which was more suited to this situation with the on-going nature rather than being a one-off. It sounds like a new JV on each would be the best? I had thought maybe a more long-term agreement would be smoother to move from one to the next with the terms already agreed upon. Open to pros/cons on why you say never a partnership.

  I also realize that a trust does not protect in the way that a corporation may, but the anonymity of ownership is the benefit I was intending as the reason.  Protection probably wasn't the best descriptor there so thanks for catching that. 

The BRRRRs would be heavily analyzed going into it to see where the cards would fall before deciding to pursue it as a strategy with a given property. I have several buyers looking for BRRRRs and some have ended up buying flips or live-in flips instead because the numbers don't often work to BRRRR. You are right that most properties that may make good flips either aren't able to recover 100% capital at refi or if they do, won't cash flow at market rents with that much leverage. In my market at least it is far easier to find a good rental or a good flip, but BRRRRs make the numbers tighter since you're trying to cashflow at a loan 75% of ARV, rather than a more common 75% of acquisition + rehab on simply buying a flip 25% down and paying for rehab with cash.

However, I really don't see the downside or conflict of interest you mention in some cash being left in if we end up over spending or coming in low on appraisal. Sure if we don't plan well there may be a large amount left in a BRRRR. But typically, the risk of a well planned BRRRR is still only ending up with 5-10% left in it, either for appraisal/rehab cost reasons or preserving cash-flow. Anything over 10% left in is poor planning on the front end of the deal unless it was purely voluntary on the back end.

Lets say we put $160,000 into a property we only planned to spend $150k on. It appraises at $200k even though we thought it would be $210k. Probably not worst case scenario, but still missing the mark on both by $10k. 75% LTV with $200k appraisal gives us $150k back and he's left $10,000 of his capital in the property. $10k on a $200k appraisal is 5% of appraised ARV. He has 5% cash in the deal and we split the 95% neither of us put in out of pocket. I have 42.5% ownership in a property I didn't put a dime into and he has 47.5% having purchased 5% with capital. If he leaves 10%, I've still got 45% ownership and he has 55%. 45% ownership with $0 down isn't a bad deal for me no matter how I look at it. We'll use a PM, set aside for vacancy/capex/repair reserves, etc etc (all the "BP teachings" more than covered all over the forums) Any properties that aren't going to come close to BRRRR numbers will be flip-or-nothing.

Now I'm not confusing ownership with equity, I realize there will be a loan up to 75% of the value on the property. 40-50% of the equity should we sell and the same 40-50% share of a $200/mo target cash flow is not life changing for me x 1 property. Five or ten properties starts to become significant. But for me to be able to have an ownership interest in a rental property without any of my own capital or hard money costs is well worth taking a smaller share when there's cash left in. We will be looking at deals to work both ways, so we may BRRRR one and flip the next. I think in either case conservative analysis on the front end is one of the most important parts to be sure we can keep recycling the capital.

Out of curiosity, why do you recommend an out of state holding company?  I've never even considered that.

I'm hoping to get some big picture advice on structure here, pros and cons of different options, etc.   I already have plans of meeting with an Attorney well versed in land trusts and Real Estate partnerships for the finite details and any state-specific legalities.  I'm sure he'll have advice and could cover the basics, but I wish to gain some clarity on basic structure to get more value out of our meeting.  The less basics the Attorney needs to explain, the better!

I've been a Realtor a little over a year, most of that time having to split my time with another service business I started in 2007 as I've transitioned more time to RE over time.  I'm finally moving away from my other business and into full time RE.  I've sold a handful of houses and made a ton of networking connections.  I've got a three properties actively listed and two rehabs ongoing for clients to sell when complete as well as one in escrow for a buyer, other buyers searching, and a few listings I'm nurturing for short term future sale when ready.  One flip client is an experienced flipper and living out of town, so I'm his boots on the ground while he's got the decisions handled. With the other client, this is his first flip so he's been consulting with me on many of the choices (which I love!).  Having not flipped any before on my own but being quite knowledgeable on construction practices, I've jumped at the opportunity to research products, look at rehabbed comps in person and online, talk to contractors and other investors, and come up with some great options.  So far I've picked or helped pick the paint colors inside and out, cabinet hardware, half bath layout, granite, laundry layout, and we're going to pick flooring and appliances together this week.  

Due to the debt from a previous divorce I'm still digging out from, I'm unable to bring capital to the table at this time and had thought I'd just be a helpful Realtor until I'd built my own seed money after squashing my debt. I'm not tracking my hours on this flip I'm helping with, every moment is an incredible education that hasn't cost me a dime. 

I've kept my options open along the way knowing I wanted to do a mix of traditional MLS sales for the income and go down any investing path that opened up to me. That being said, I was still shocked when this flip client offered to form a partnership to flip and BRRRR properties moving forward and to share a quarter of the profits from the current flip with me as well. We've discussed 'how' we want the numbers to work, but will be working with an attorney to hammer out the details of how to structure it legally.

The basics we have discussed:

-Properties will be held in a Land Trust, one for each property, to protect us both.

-Capital will be 100% from my partner. None from me, and no outside capital to start with

-If we BRRRR a property and recover all of his capital, we'll own it 50/50. If he leaves some in, he'll own that percentage of appraised ARV and we'll split the remainder of ownership/profit share.

-All sales and listings will be through my license hung with EXP Realty, my partner isn't licensed. We won't be forming an entity for brokerage at all. There are some restrictions and costs implemented by my brokerage for agent-interest properties that may eventually encourage a switch to a flat fee type brokerage, but for now it's workable. Nothing unreasonable, just brokerage liability concerns for extra caution (pre-list home inspection, no permitted work done by me regardless of qualifications, stuff like that). I still may end up keeping up an MLS-based transactional business outside of these projects so I have to weigh the pros and cons of brokerage over time. My gross commissions will count toward my profit share so my brokerage expenses will be shouldered by me and not shown on our partnership costs. In time, I will shift over to wrapping my commissions into the deal rather than taking them at closing, but this keeps my income and sales volume simple to track as I work to grow both.

My concerns:

-I want to ensure the protection of my partner's capital both when liquid in a bank account as well as when deployed on a property. He's putting a lot of trust in me, so I want to be sure his capital is fully his at all stages. I shouldn't somehow default to owning half of an asset he bought even if we are 50/50 partners on the value-add 'business' portion.

-We'd like to structure it so that deciding to BRRRR instead of sell a property is a choice that can be made at any point in progress without altering structure. We'll be analyzing every deal both ways and are open to flips or BRRRRs

-He's already offered for me not to shoulder any financial risk beyond zero profit (which is awesome!), but I want to be sure we are both protected from the other's potential partnership liabilities, whether intentional or not.  The best example I can think of would be if one of us took out a loan of some kind in the partnership name, unknown to the other (say he went and bought a new Corvette in the partnership name....not likely since we both drive used sedans, haha).  This would then make us both liable for this loan. We both need some freedoms to operate efficiently but there should be inherent checks/balances to be sure the capital is deployed only in the way we both intend, him having final say if we disagree.

-We both agree that I should have check writing abilities to pay contractors and signing ability to submit offers. However, I shouldn't have full access to all of his un-deployed capital (in my opinion).  I've thought of making the partnership 51/49 so that he has majority, but I don't know if this is how to do it in practice. 

I figure there will be multiple layers of LLCs going on here, one I have myself to be paid profits through, one we have the partnership in to make offers and buy/rehab property, and maybe an additional funding one that only he is on?  I figure he would fund the partnership account as needed to make necessary funds available when needed, depositing the recovered capital back into his 'funding' entity.  

With the houses being held in trust, would our partnership LLC be the beneficiary and my partner (or his solely owned entity) the Trustee?

We know where we both stand and what we both bring to the table.  We are pretty clear on those concepts to come up with a partnership agreement, but the understanding gets a bit foggy in how to actually execute the legal business structure.  At first we will be doing one property at a time with cash.  However in time, I may start putting capital in for a higher split, we may bring in outside investors, hard money, or even other partners. 

Would anyone care to enlighten me on the legal structures you've used when one partner brings the cash and part time involvement in the deal while the other makes the deal hunt, analysis hustle, and project management their full time gig?   In asking around at a local BP meetup for information, I had another investor I've known awhile mention wanting to possibly do the same thing with me for BRRRRs, so now my need for understanding is two-fold.  I'm absolutely thrilled at the opportunities so I want to be sure to enter the partnerships on the right foot!

Thanks for any insight anyone can provide!  And no need to worry about state specific advice, I will be running everything past a FL attorney for confirmation, just looking for high level theories and ideas here so I'm not a total newbie when I sit in front of an attorney and published author :).  Thanks everyone!

@Larry Majkrzak it really all depends on your current work schedule and what freedoms you may have while working there. If your current job wouldn't be the best, there's no problem in looking for a new job that may better suite a start into part time Real Estate. I'm at the tail end of doing both RE and another career for about 13 months, about to step into being a full time Realtor.  Today was supposed to be my jumping off point, but it's been postponed into next week due to weather (seriously...outside business in FL, can't help it) .  What I'm stepping away from, though, is almost 12 years running a mobile auto detailing business I started in 2007 at 21 years old.  No desk, no colleagues to let down, I worked either alone or with my wife and could stop at almost any point to return a call or email. It was a slight issue at times not to have my laptop with me, but I could at least send PDF files by smartphone.  I'd miss a call or something while running equipment, but could return it right away. 

  For me, as soon as I got licensed, my Real Estate clients took priority and I worked to be sure my detailing clients didn't realize that. It would have been really difficult if I had long shifts I was unable to get to my phone.  I'm sure with some effort to express available hours, it would be possible.  But I was almost able to 'hide' the fact that I wasn't full time, and my early clients have appreciated it.  I probably looked like a teenager checking social media all the time, but was in fact doing real estate business by phone while shampooing minivan carpets.  Not ideal, but it worked. Early on my RE clients knew I did both, but after awhile I stopped telling them I still detailed cars and was sure to be always available.  Lots of rushed stops at home to shower and change clothes to run out the door to a meeting.

I got my Real Estate license in February 2018 and at the time had only about 10-15 hours per week that I could devote to RE.  I 'found' more hours in losing out on some sleep and putting in some long nights until 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning on BP, reading, deal analysis, or anything else I could devour. I've also got 5 kids I like to spend time with as much as I can, so I can't and don't work non-stop.  I'd be 'off work' with my family for hours in the afternoon and early evening, and then get right back to it. I'd be up the next morning and out of the house by 6:30.  By mid-year last year, I had cut back my detailing work (and my income) and had increased my RE input to 20-25 hours per week, still working my other business 40+ hours.  I was submitting offers for clients, showing houses, making connections, meeting new clients, but hadn't sold a single house.  My first closing wasn't until 7 months after I was licensed in November, and my second closing was a week after that in early December. That would have been much much sooner had I jumped in full time, but I'm sure still a few months at least.  My combined net commission from both of those first sales barely covered my startup costs, but I had some transactions under my belt and had learned a massive amount in under a year.  I've still been doing both, swinging the lever much further toward Real Estate but still putting 25-35 hours per week into my service business until this week.  Next week I have about 15 hours of work for that business and then I'm done for good.

My third closing happened 4 months later in April and I'm in escrow for my fourth to close in June.  I've also listed three and have two others I will be listing after rehab.  I've been continuing to hustle and am at a tipping point, I'd be crazy not to jump in full time and my old business is also driving me crazy.

3 active listings totaling about $550k on the MLS getting showings and offers

1 under contract with buyer clients to close in early June for $160k

2 rehabs for clients that I'm helping to manage before sale, both will finish in June with a combined ARV of $400-420k

And in addition, now I have been in talks with one of those rehab clients to form a 50/50 partnership to flip and BRRRR houses moving forward, his funding and my hustle/ project management. Capital is the only thing that has held me back from my own investing, and now that I'm going full time as a Realtor, I've hustled my way into an opportunity to also begin cash investing with liquid capital, something I thought I was at least 2 years from.

So on paper....technically, I've sold three properties covering both sides on one. However, I've also got over a million in real estate either listed, to-be-listed, or under contract, and a quarter million dollar budget after we sell a rehab to go flip and BRRRR properties myself. I couldn't have survived financially without my other business along the way, but it also held me back from faster growth in Real Estate. It is going to be a juggle, it is going to be tough, but keep your mind open to different types of jobs to do that allow you to make being a Realtor your top priority. Also consider joining a team as a buyers agent to start. If you do that, you may have to work a night job so as to be available for daytime Real Estate needs. There are a lot of moving parts, but it is possible with determination. Some teams may be open to taking on a part time agent, but most want full time commitment.

@Edward Testa I'm not a builder, but I am a Realtor in Apopka and have networked with some good CBC and GCs.  Danny Sorondo with HRS Construction is an excellent General Contractor/Builder.  I've got him working on a flip for a client now, he's estimated several other properties for clients, and I know he does both ground up and full gut rehabs on 100+ year old homes. 

Danny Sorondo

321-278-9800

I'm sure he would have plenty of references to provide with projects similar to what you desire.  I haven't yet seen a project through to completion with him personally but have spoken with lots who have and have heard his name referred from several unrelated sources.

There are some other homebuilders in the area that do mostly custom builds on client-owned land that I've heard spoken highly of.  I can't personally vouch for them as I haven't built ground up, but I'd be happy to be your 'boots on the ground' so to speak to get you some Apopka builder contacts.  

What size homes are you looking to build and at what price point for sale? 

If I had the capital personally at the moment I'd be putting up new construction starter homes in-fill within the established areas. A 3/2 1400sf block house with a 1 or 2 car garage in the right places of Apopka or Clermont could easily get $225-230k.  

This is an informational post for anyone interested in the Central Florida area to consider Apopka in your search. It's not about specific deals or asset classes even, but it all comes back to that when an area explodes.  The fuse in Apopka is lit and has been burning a good number of years.  I'm not referring to the overall market.  For a moment, who knows or cares what that is doing, think of this discussion in a "flat appreciation" frame of mind independent of what the overall 'housing market' does or doesn't do.

  Apopka is a town that gets skipped over in most Orlando news, and it blows my mind due to the billions of dollars of development happening right now right here in Apopka.  It's such an 'ignored' town that my Dad's nickname for it growing up was "Apopka-tucky".  Do with this info as you see fit, but as I get to a point of being able to build my investment portfolio, I will stay within a few miles of my home with every property. Not for convenience, but for market stability and growth I see all around me every day.  I feel there's intense growth approaching.  All of the corporate centers around: Maitland, Lake Mary, Orlando, UCF, are all becoming limited on land.  Apopka has literally thousands of acres of raw undeveloped land.  I believe geographically speaking it is one of the largest cities, much of which has been slowly turning from agriculture to neighborhoods with 0.2 acre lots.

I've quite often been a big 'cheerleader' for Apopka on BP, maybe to a fault.  But I love this little country town about 25 minutes Northwest of Orlando and I hope any central florida investor at least considers looking here.  I feel like the signs are all around that it's going to be massive, and sooner rather than later.  Forget, for a moment what the market does this year or next. I'm not even talking 3-4.  Nobody really truly knows exactly what home prices will do.  What I do know for absolute fact is that the 32712 and 32703 zip codes are going to see absolute huge gains in the next decade or two.  We still fall well behind Orlando proper in price per square foot, a bit less behind in market rents.  But the market pricing doesn't seem to be paying attention to what is and has been obvious all around me since at least 2002. Apopka is going to be the next Lake Nona, Lake Mary, or College Park.  

  I grew up a few miles East in Altamonte Springs just across the Seminole County line and loved the area in the late 80s and early 90s.  By the late 90s, Altamonte was overrun by unrestrained and un-planned growth by way of low income apartments next to 30-40 lot neighborhoods with warehouses and auto body shops behind. By the early 2000s, those low income apartments were getting low-grade rehabs and sold at stupid premiums as condos, just in time for a bunch of people to buy them for $200-300k only to see prices fall to below $100k, foreclosures skyrocket, and HOAs fail miserably.  There's no "central Altamonte Springs" despite their marketing efforts with Uptown Altamonte and the failing Altamonte Mall.  I watched Altamonte flounder while seeing the longest serving mayor in the US, John Land, carefully plan and oversee 'his' city of Apopka for 60+ years until shortly before his death in 2014.  We had a shifty lobbyist mayor who slipped his way in when the other mayor bowed out abruptly for health reasons.  This slick fella stuck around and cleaned out reserves for four years, blowing through millions to his buddies. We kicked him out as a collective and have a great local insurance broker as Mayor since 2018, Bryan Nelson, who's whipping the budget into shape in some brilliant ways, including a massive pay cut himself. 

When ready to buy in 2009, way before finding BP or getting my real estate license, I ultimately chose to buy a home in Apopka.  I bought my house 10 years ago even now after having exponentially more knowledge of the market, I would 100% buy it again today even at today's price with 42% appreciation since purchase.  Apopka wasn't big enough at the time of the crash to be littered with apartments-turned condos-turned foreclosures.  It is almost entirely single family homes with many dating back to the early 1900s on original bumpy brick roads with thousands more built in the boom that has been happening since 2002.  Prices dropped in the recession and there were of course foreclosures like anywhere, but builders (the financially stable ones) were still building houses at a steady pace through it all.  Yet drive 5 minutes and there are actual cows and actual fields, several natural springs, nature preserves..... it's night and day from downtown Orlando 25 minutes away.

The wekiva parkway toll project http://www.wekivaparkway.com/ has brought Orlando Toll Road access to Apopka and Mount Dora making commuting easier than from more gridlocked cities closer to Orlando.  Developers have been feverishly building homes and developing land for more communities in and around Apopka, now spreading to Mt. Dora as well.  One DR Horton neighborhood just across the Mt. Dora line has something like 246 houses going in with resort style clubhouse amenities.   Down the road a short way is still massive acreage working farms.

in 2017 Florida Hospital (Now Advent Health) opened a $203 million hospital campus at the hub of toll roads 414/429.  That immediately spiked property values in the surrounding area by 20-30% when the overall market saw 10% growth.  Countless builder neighborhoods followed suit and a luxury apartment complex sprang from the ground with the cheapest 1/1 going for $1200/mo and 3/2 apartments for $1750/mo.

Then comes news that Orlando Health bought 51 acres in North Apopka.  I don't think they've confirmed plans or timeline for build, but obviously an eventual hospital facility.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/health/os-orlando-...

So that's a pretty big deal for a second huge new hospital to come on the heals of the first.  Then I read that Coca Cola is adding 20,000 square feet to their Apopka R&D facility in town and in talks to build a 300,000 square foot bottling plant on a different 90 acre Apopka parcel:

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2019/01/2...

Lots of construction jobs to build and then more permanent jobs once complete.  Just today I see this new article about GOYA foods having plans for 330,000 square feet of processing facility in Apopka as well:

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2019/...

There are countless other businesses building and developing smaller less news worthy projects that collectively are huge too.  There's also a "City Center Apopka" project underway starting with a hotel next to a historic mansion that serves as an event venue.  Next phase is pedestrian friendly businesses and boardwalk around an existing pond with fountain.  In north Apopka close to the Orlando Health parcel is another larger approved 600 acre development called Kelly Park Crossing. It's going to be a mixed use development planned.  So far I believe Publix is the only confirmed with plans to build there, but retail, commercial, sf and mf residential are planned/approved in the future land use guidelines.

I'm still working to build capital myself to get my first investment single family or duplex, helping clients along the way to buy singles and small multi for rentals or flips.  I'm nowhere near the 'pay grade' of these multi-million dollar development projects. However, paying attention to these massive projects is extremely exciting for the $150k little basic house that could be worth $300k well before a College Park house doubles in value. 

So BP, am I just being extremely biased to my home town or does it look to anyone else like the figurative lid is about to blow off this little under-valued town in the next 10 years? 

I will admit I haven't read every reply here since many were on point with the basics...so another example may have been given. But I often hear the excuse for unlicensed wholesaling that a property isn't MLS ready. Now hang on. I have a client with a somewhat stalled rehab in my area I have listed/withheld and am working through finding GCs for. Meanwhile, he owned a boarded up single family/illegal duplex junker in South Florida where he lives nearby but I'm 3 hrs north. It was the next rehab on the list, but after sitting awhile untouched he decided to sell it. He wasn't facing foreclosure or anything urgent, but wanted to liquidate the dead equity if he could at a break even or better. I tried to find a buyer or realtor to refer it to, but it had boarded up windows, a massive hole in the floor and one in the roof not much smaller and nobody local wanted to sell it. It was a good area but easily needed $75k+ in work. Guess where I sold it, under contract in under 3 weeks? Right on THE MLS! Not even my MLS, I paid a few hundred to join theirs. I listed it with some good pictures, I was honest in my description, and the seller met buyers to unboard the door and make sure they didn't fall through the floor. I had 8 offers in under 24 hours and the final price to get it was $9000 under list after closing a much larger gap in a bunch of back and forth. Thought it was a dead deal a few times, but we closed only a week after scheduled. In return for sellers involvement locally 3 hours from me, I listed at a discount and ended up crediting the buyer most of the buy side since they came to me directly. I made one trip to West Palm and fielded calls. I didn't make $15,000 like a wholesaler, in fact it was under $2k after buyer rebates to make it work. But the seller netted just about every dollar he had in it, the buyer got it at a price that made it a deal for the permitted duplex they planned and I didn't hear any of the 30+ Realtors and buyers I talked to tell me it didn't belong on the MLS. Oh and the seller was pretty happy with me for making it happen. I'll make it up on future transactions with him over time.

There is definitely a time and situation for a direct home buying offer and or net listing....but only by a licensed wholesaler in my opinion who is at least bound by state law. The MLS doesn't somehow ban distressed homes, you very simply disclose everything and the offers pour in...at least in my experience.

@Robert Kirkley yes the final leg of the Wekiva Parkway from SR46 in Mt. Dora out East to I-4 near the 417 is the final "leg" to complete the loop.

In approximately 2002 the 429 opened connecting I-4 south of Disney up to 441 in Apopka, crossing the turnpike and 408 toll in the process.

In 2009ish the 414 Toll was opened to connect the employment hub of Maitland Blvd Corridor, packed with large office buildings, to 429 just south of Apopka. FL Hospital, now called Advent Health, bought land near that hub and opened a $207million new campus in 2017 to replace a smaller older facility elsewhere in Apopka.

Then over the last 18 months the 429 toll has been completed up north to SR46 in Mt Dora with a leg called the 453 splitting further West to 46 (with talks of that one eventually continuing into Umatilla and Ocala). The newest exits at Kelly Park Rd and both onto SR 46 dump out near vast parcels of undeveloped land. Much of the land immediately around the exits has been owned by the same people who facilitated and shaped it's path, so they've had a hand in the Future Land Use zoning that has made some commercial parcels hit $1,000,000/acre while residential is still closer to $20-30k/acre.

Since 1990 Apopka has grown from 20,000 people to well over 50,000 while other nearby towns such as Altamonte Springs have nearly stagnated (once as desirable as Apopka now is). We are still missing a few key details to be a thriving sub-economy like Lake Nona or Oviedo. We need A class office space (leased out of course), we need employers to take note and more to move here. Currently most highly paid people leave Apopka for work. However with Maitland, the UCF/Research Triangle area and Orlando running out of land, it is only a matter of time before the first A-class office building comes and it explodes. Having a second brand new hospital coming will be an additional boost to medical fields.

Back in the mid-90s my brother and I used to ride our dirt bikes in the vacant fields along Maitland Blvd where EA Games, Orlando Magic RDV sportsplex and other mass commerce stand today. I don't think anything will stop Orlando's sprawl headed Northwest and I've watched it for decades.