Skip to content
×
Pro Members Get
Full Access!
Get off the sidelines and take action in real estate investing with BiggerPockets Pro. Our comprehensive suite of tools and resources minimize mistakes, support informed decisions, and propel you to success.
Advanced networking features
Market and Deal Finder tools
Property analysis calculators
Landlord Command Center
ANNUAL Save 16%
$32.50 /mo
$390 billed annualy
MONTHLY
$39 /mo
billed monthly
7 day free trial. Cancel anytime
×
Try Pro Features for Free
Start your 7 day free trial. Pick markets, find deals, analyze and manage properties.
All Forum Categories
All Forum Categories
Followed Discussions
Followed Categories
Followed People
Followed Locations
Market News & Data
General Info
Real Estate Strategies
Landlording & Rental Properties
Real Estate Professionals
Financial, Tax, & Legal
Real Estate Classifieds
Reviews & Feedback

All Forum Posts by: Ryan Evans

Ryan Evans has started 12 posts and replied 627 times.

Post: I'm taking a field trip to Cleveland!

Ryan EvansPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cleveland, OH
  • Posts 653
  • Votes 769

Alright folks here it is!

You want the details huh? Well, you’ve come to the right place. Here is the full breakdown of my second investment property for anyone interested in the nitty-gritty details of residential investing in the midwest from out of state. If you’re reading this as a new investor, I hope it serves as a more in-depth analysis of what a deal actually looks like. I know how frustrating it can be not having the whole picture. Hearing the success stories and the basic numbers only goes so far. Here is the rundown on a real deal that took place during September 2017 in Cleveland, OH. Skip ahead for the numbers or get comfy because this is going to be a long one.

You’ll find before, after, and progress photos here. (Google Drive link)

The backstory:

In October 2016 I decided to stop talking and start doing. My real estate portfolio wasn’t going to build itself, so I bought a plane ticket to Cleveland, OH. I’d never been before. I didn’t know a single person in the state. And I had never owned a property. I was 25. But the internet told me it had cheap houses, one of the highest global crime rates, and awesome rental returns, so I did what any wise investor would do and spent all my savings on a rundown out-of-state rental property. And I paid all cash.

Impressed? Well, think again. It cost less than a lightly used Toyota minivan. I paid $25,000 for my first property. Total. Yes, apparently that is a thing.

It was an absolute disaster at first but turned out great in the long-run. That’s a story for another day, though.

Anyway, after taking the plunge and just going for it, I got pretty burned out on the first deal. But when the dust settled and the rent checks started rolling in, I started looking for property number 2. Having spent all my spare cash on #1, and not having the ability to get bank financing, I had to track down some private money (also a story for another day).

Having built some credibility on the first deal, I found an investor and just needed to find a deal. Here’s the deal I found…

About the property:

In the eastern suburbs of Cleveland, OH, the property is on a corner lot on what is arguably one of the nicest streets in the suburb of North Collinwood. It’s a 1930 built 2,400 square foot up/down duplex with 2 beds and 1 bath in each unit and a detached 2 car garage. The suburb itself has a mixed reputation. It’s certainly not one of the nicer parts of town, but has beach club access to Lake Erie and is in close proximity to the local arts district and plenty of bars, restaurants, and shops. It’s been owned by one family since it was built and you can tell. Everything works and is in great shape. No damaged cabinets or damaged woodwork to be found!

Closing the deal

My original cash offer was around $70k pending inspections and with appliances included. And a 3 week closing window. We went back and forth and settled on $76k, which is where I expected it to land. I mailed an earnest money check for $500 which proceeded to get lost in the mail. Learning this a couple weeks later I mailed another check, but it wouldn’t arrive until the other closing docs were put together so they just sent it back to me. Technically I didn’t pay earnest money.

I went into the deal expecting to inherit one tenant while one unit was vacant. I knew I would have to raise the rent eventually, but planned on deferring that cost. Nope, the tenant wasn’t on a lease and decided to move out when the property sold since she was a family friend of the owner. Upon learning this I filed a contingency that the tenant must be gone and the property in broom clean condition upon closing. It pushed back closing a couple weeks, but it worked out and actually fit my schedule better. I booked flights for the date of closing, setup utilities to transfer, lined up insurance, got an inspection done, got my loan documents together, worked with my agent to get quotes, recruited/hired my friend to fly out with me, and probably did some other things that I’m now forgetting. Two days before closing my agent did a final walkthrough

THE NUMBERS

I tried to include the most accurate numbers, but don’t hold it against me if I messed up a few calculations!

Costs

Asking price: $87,000

Purchase price: $76,000

Closing costs: $1,125

Due at closing $75,300 (after property tax adjustments)

ARV: ?

Okay, here’s the thing. Cleveland is still a cold market so there are not many good comps. And you can’t really measure value by suburb in this part of town since it’s so “street-by-street.” This is not something you will understand without physically being in the neighborhood. I repeat, you will not truly understand property value in Cleveland without going to Cleveland.

That said, the single family across the street sold last year for $120k. That’s reassuring. And another good duplex comp sold recently for $90k. What I paid might be way too high for some people that know the area. But, it’s a very unique property in great condition and it’s worth every dollar in my opinion. My first property was $35k including rehab and it rents for almost as much as this will, but this property is significantly nicer. It’s all relative anyway. This property would sell for over a million in Seattle, but it might be worth nothing in certain suburbs of Cleveland.

After the updates are done I like to think I could sell the thing for at least $100k in a couple years. Hopefully closer to $125k. With $1,500 in rents coming in and less than $700 in expenses, I’m sure I could find a buyer. $800 a month in turnkey cash flow anyone?

If you’re thinking, “but Zillow says it’s only worth ___” then listen here. Properties in Cleveland sell for what someone is willing to pay, not what a computer algorithm comes up with. Anyway, I’m planning on holding onto it, so let’s move along.

General expenses:

  • Property inspection: $425
  • Flights/bags/ground transit for 2 people: $600
  • Service main water valve: $389
  • Service 2 furnaces: $200
  • Paint materials both units: $370
  • Cost of hiring friend who came along and worked 3.5 days: $500
  • Total random home depot materials including light fixtures, electrical gear, primer, brushes, locks, light bulbs, tools, drywall, tape, etc: $1,820.
  • Total: $4,304

Unit 1 - Down

  • Paint labor bedrooms, bath, and kitchen: $0 (friend from out of town did it for free)
  • Installing fixtures, switches, outlets, cabinet knobs, doorstops, blinds, towel racks, bathroom mirror, caulking, etc: $0 - did it myself.
  • Estimated cost if contracted: $1,500

Unit 2 - Up

  • Labor to strip wallpaper, repair drywall, sand, prime, and paint full unit (contracted out): $1200
  • Installing electrical outlets/switches/fixtures: $125
  • New electric stove: $200
  • Refinish bathtub: $300
  • Pull carpet: $250
  • Total: $2,075

Estimated short-term costs (<1 year)

  • New roof Spring 2018: $8000
  • Gutter cleaning and repair: $300
  • New Floor in kitchen (estimate): $500
  • Total estimated costs: $8,800

Year 1 non-recurring costs to make it rent ready: $91,979

Estimated mid-term costs (1-5 years)

  • 2 new furnaces: $5500
  • 2 new hot water tanks: $2000
  • Misc: $1,000
  • Total: $8,500

*After the tanks/furnaces get replaced the building should be rock solid for 10-15 years at least, assuming no major disasters.

Monthly expense breakdown:

  • 5-year private money balloon loan on $87k over 20 years: $574
  • Property tax: $215
  • Insurance: ~$100
  • Water bill: ~$60
  • Sewer bill: ~$40
  • Garbage: $16
  • Rental registration: $6
  • Lawncare: $40
  • CapEx: $100
  • Vacancy: $75@ 5%

*I’m self-managing, therefore I’m not yet factoring in property management.

Monthly Totals:

Projected rent: $1,500 ($750/unit, but will shoot for $775 initially)

Expenses: $1,226

Cash Flow: $274/month

Cash on cash return: infinite (more or less)

ROI based on $18,000 yearly at $91,979 initial cost: 19.5%

NOI: $3,288

About the loan:

I don’t qualify for bank financing since I’ve moved countries and jobs so much in the last couple years. This property is effectively 100% financed with other people’s money. I’ll be paying for additional costs as needed, but I wrapped most of the immediate rehab costs into the loan.

The loan ($87k five year balloon @5% amortized over 20 years) means I have 5 years to refinance or sell. At the 5 year mark I’ll owe roughly $73k and will have paid about $20k in interest, plus $14k of the principal.

I have the ability to pay the loan off at any time with no penalties, which I intend to do.

The loan documents, or more specifically, my promissory note (loan terms I negotiated) and mortgage (security device to give my lender first lien on the property. Ohio uses mortgages for private deals over a Deed of Trust) were done by none other than @Timothy Murphy III here on BP. Thanks Tim :)

These are not necessarily great loan terms for many investors. It makes sense for me because I can’t go to the bank, but it’s worth noting that I don’t recommend my strategy to other investors. Especially the new ones.

My strategy is the slow and complicated version of what can be done much easier with a bit of savings and leverage. Since I did not traditionally finance this deal, it is not necessarily a great deal from an investment standpoint. I think this is important to realize because the idea of investing with other people’s money is tempting for the new investor. Though, it is a major headache and risk for not a ton of money, relatively speaking. Assuming the property is worth $100k, if I sell in 5 years, I’d have spent about $120k (with interest), I would net roughly $94k after commissions, and owe about $73k at that point. That’s $22k over 5 years, plus $16.4k in net rent. Hopefully, this property is on track to make almost $40k over the next 5 years. That’s not bad since I’m not spending anything up front. Though, I wouldn’t use this strategy if I had bank financing.

But here’s where it gets good if you’ve got a real job and some savings, unlike some of us. This is AKA the traditional route. This is just an idea of what the deal could look like with a standard 25% down investment property loan (This is not fully accurate since banks might not loan on this property due to the rehab needed, it’s just an example). This is probably closer to what a first time investor can expect.

Down payment on $76,000: $20k (rough estimate with closing costs)

Actual loan amount: $56,000

Rehab costs: $16k

Monthly rent: $1,500

Monthly loan cost: $305

Other expenses: $652

Total monthly expenses: $957

Monthly cash flow: $543

Yearly:

Down payment + rehab: $36,000

Income: $18,000

Expenses: $11,484

Cash flow: $6,516

Cash on cash return ($6,516/($20k down+$16k rehab)) = 18%

Why I did the deal?

For my personal situation and goals this deal makes plenty of sense, but it’s not for everyone. I’ll take an extra $250 a month in exchange for the drama of being a landlord if I don’t have to put much of my own money down. I’m happy and my lender is happy, but that may not be the case for you. I plan to refinance this property in a couple years to increase my cash flow a couple hundred dollars a month and then hold onto it indefinitely.

If I had the cash and ability to get financing I’d have financed it from the start. This post was intended to be an example of how one might get creative to break into real estate if they don’t have a big bankroll.

Aside from the numbers, if you want to know about a day in the life of an out of state, fly in/out, self-managing landlord, here is the other side of the story…

Day 1: Kickoff day. My redeye flight landed about 7am, or two hours before the title company opened the day after Labor Day and was set to record/finalize the property transfer. At about 9am we found out they wouldn’t be able to get the deal done until 4pm. So, day 1 of rehab was fully spent sitting around planning. I viewed the property (as a spectator), but I legally couldn’t do anything yet. I made a quick list and set off to home depot for supplies. I also went to my other property where I had stored my tools, clothes, etc., from the last trips. Got the keys around 4:30pm and was so worn out that the rest of the night was putting together a game plan, having dinner, drinks, and straight to bed.

Day 2: Freak out day. Looks like there were more issues than I thought. Nothing major, fortunately. But the little stuff adds up. I found out about all the issues with new locks, shower rods, cabinet pulls, and all the stuff that doesn’t show up on an inspection report. Back to Home Depot. At least it wasn’t nearly as bad as the first property. I had to constantly remind myself of this.

Day 3-4: Met with @Michael Rodriguez and @Ian Kurela to talk some real estate and tour the property. Met a few neighbors, had my go-to rent-ready-rehab coordinator come by, got a plumbing quote, had my painters get started upstairs, and continued on rehab with my buddy whom I flew out from Seattle. Day 3 my friend @Paul Dorn arrives early and we go house shopping with our agent. I’m mostly just giving opinions since I’ve done a whopping 1.5 deals at this point, but it’s his first deal and trip to Ohio.

Day 5: Early trip to Home Depot for some last minute electrical gear we forgot. My friend gets it installed and heads off to the airport (I flew him out from Seattle and paid him hourly since I’m still building my list of reliable contractors). At this point I’ve got the rest of the day to wrap up any work before heading home. I know I won’t finish both units, but am determined to get the first floor done. But we all have dinner plans and tour around the city with my friend/agent to see the fun side of Cleveland. Apparently, there is more to do in Cleveland than shop at Home Depot!

Day 6: After the friends leave at about 11pm, Paul and I get back to work finishing up paint and cleaning out the down unit. Since we had to leave for the airport at 4am, we didn’t have time to sleep. We just powered through the night and got it done. We brought out the last of the trash bags with our luggage. I snapped a few after photos and that’s it.

What we accomplished in 5 days

The reason for flying out was really to save a few bucks and do the whole sweat equity thing. I had time before starting a new work contract so it made sense for me. During the short trip my friends and I painted most of the downstairs, installed all new plugs, switches, light fixtures, fans, blinds, cabinet knobs, locks, rewired the bathrooms and added mirrors/proper lighting, caulked bathrooms, repaired drywall, ran a new wire to the second floor stove, replaced shower heads, painted vents, installed curtain rods, and cleaned out the basement. I’m sure I missed a few things. The upstairs unit was still being painted when we left and is still a work in progress at the time of this writing.

Post-Cleveland

With a full-day layover in Denver catching up with a friend, we didn’t get back to Seattle until late. Then the next morning I started a major new consulting contract. It was a full week on-site, which is why this post took a week to get done.

The property has been photographed and should be on the market soon starting at $775/unit. Though, I’m really shooting for $750.

What happens now?

Now that one unit is done and the other is still getting ready, I’m having my local general contractor/neighbor plug away at a few things. I’m also hiring a rent-ready rehabber/property manager to get the place fully up to speed. It still needs to have carpets pulled up, some fixtures installed, a tub refinished, and a few other exterior things that aren’t as urgent. Hopefully, it will be ready by the end of the month.

My agent who helped me buy the house is screening tenants and I’ll be managing the property for the time being at least. Once leases are signed and utilities are transferred it should be smooth sailing for at least a while. I do expect to replace some big-ticket items in the next couple years so I won’t be surprised when I get the call that the furnace went out. Not being ready for something like that can be a big setback for a new investor, but I’ve budgeted it in.

Onto the next deal

With two down and many more to go, I’m hoping to keep scaling up. This will certainly involve partnering up with other investors. I’m already talking to a couple and am open to any partnership that can be a solid win-win.

I’ve gotten familiar with the local market and have the flexibility, time, and energy to manage deals. If you’ve got something to add, then comment away, send me a PM, or give me a call so we can talk about it.

If you’ve got more questions or want to learn more, also feel free to give me a call.

I hope if this post helped in one way or another to the other investors out there looking at the midwest markets!

Whew, ok that’s all for now. Comment away

Post: I'm taking a field trip to Cleveland!

Ryan EvansPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cleveland, OH
  • Posts 653
  • Votes 769

@Steven Aviram we definitely ran into each other at Six Shooter! I just checked and have your number in my phone! Glad to hear another neighborhood local that knows the potential of the area!

@Trevor Lohman congrats on the new property! I hope the turnkey works out as I'd love to explore that route in the future. 

Post: Seattle Real Estate Mastermind

Ryan EvansPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cleveland, OH
  • Posts 653
  • Votes 769

@Christian Brodin any updates on this? If you're looking for locations, I recently started consulting with a high-end coworking space near Seattle Center with free parking and plenty of space for hosting groups. I'd love to get more investors connected with our professional business community as well. Let me know if I can help facilitate this in any way!

Post: I'm taking a field trip to Cleveland!

Ryan EvansPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cleveland, OH
  • Posts 653
  • Votes 769

@Irina Belkofer I did have a chance to try out the pizza joint and wow, one of the best pizzas I've had in a very long time! 

@Michael Rodriguez great meeting with you last week! And I'm right next door to Euclid, but technically still in the city of Cleveland. Euclid has a Point of Sale inspection that I'm glad to avoid for the time being at least. What originally drew me to the area was the arts district and the fact that the houses are pretty inexpensive. I don't see the neighborhood gentrifying the way some of the other suburbs have, but it's got some good stuff going. It's right by the freeway into downtown, next to the lake and one of the nicest beaches around, the district has one of the cities best music venues, and it's a decent working class suburb. I certainly don't think it's a neighborhood for everyone, but my second duplex is on probably the nicest street in the North Collinwood neighborhood, so I'm okay with it. Will I stick with this neighborhood in the future? I'm not sure yet, but there are a million strategies out there and this is mine for now. 

I'm just settling back in from the trip and I started a major work contract only 12 hours after I landed, so I've been swamped. But I'm working on my field report and will post it soon!

Post: I'm taking a field trip to Cleveland!

Ryan EvansPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cleveland, OH
  • Posts 653
  • Votes 769

@Account Closed Yes sir. Living the life of luxury! 

Post: I'm taking a field trip to Cleveland!

Ryan EvansPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cleveland, OH
  • Posts 653
  • Votes 769

Alright folks, we're 24 hours on the ground in Cleveland. I'll try to do some posts as I go to keep everyone updated as we go, but I'll do a full breakdown when I head back home. But here is update number 1 on the day in the life of an out of state investor showing up to a duplex bought sight unseen. Here goes.

Landed about 7 am local time, or 4 am my time. Slept about 3 hours on the plane, so we're off to a good start! To recap, I flew out my friend, an electrician/handyman to help with the rehab work, hence the "we." All the paperwork and money was submitted by Friday, but with the 4th being a holiday, we closed on 9/5, the day I arrived. After some breakfast in downtown, I was picked up by my real estate agent/friend to check out the property. We called the title company first thing and found out the transfer won't happen until 4pm. Not surprising, but now a day is wasted waiting around and running errands. However, my agent is an absolute legend and let me use her car for the day.

Got the keys around 4, and game planned a bit, and pretty much called it a day. No major surprises with the place that I didn't know about in the inspection report. There are a few more cosmetic issues that I'll need to deal with, but probably no more than $500 worth of materials and labor. 

Started fresh this morning with a tour of the new place and a great meeting with @Michael Rodriguez who's in town from Denver doing some shopping for apartment complexes. 

Just got back from spending $1,009 on new light fixtures, door knobs, and electrical gear. Now time to get to work. And if you want to look up the stats on the property, you should be able to find it from the street signs in the photo :) That's all for now...

Here are a couple photos of what I'm up against.

Post: I'm taking a field trip to Cleveland!

Ryan EvansPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cleveland, OH
  • Posts 653
  • Votes 769

Awesome to hear how many people are seeing the potential of the Cleveland area!

@Account Closed congrats on pulling the trigger. That's sometimes the hardest part! If you're passing through this week, you'll have to let me know so we can talk some real estate. 

Post: I'm taking a field trip to Cleveland!

Ryan EvansPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cleveland, OH
  • Posts 653
  • Votes 769

@Jared Lichtin I'm not personally using any banks anytime soon. I've been a bit of a nomad the last couple years so banks don't particularly like me! I was referencing my friend, but I'll make sure my he looks at all the options. 

Post: I'm taking a field trip to Cleveland!

Ryan EvansPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cleveland, OH
  • Posts 653
  • Votes 769

@Michael Swan a lot of folks don't see the massive potential in going out of state so it's great to see what can be done! I'd like to start getting into properties with more units and keep scaling up. I've for 4 down and lot more to go!

@Ian Kurela likewise! 

@Account Closed Unfortunately not this time. I'm sticking with Cleveland for the time being. 

Post: Cash out in cincinnati

Ryan EvansPosted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Cleveland, OH
  • Posts 653
  • Votes 769

I've got a friend who I believe is working with Key bank from out of state. Probably not the first choice for most, but they are based in OH, so at least understand the local landscape. I think you're likely to get better terms if you let the property sit for 6 months or so with tenants in it.