All Forum Posts by: Thomas Don

 Yes, they'll figure it out eventually, and when they do it will create another bump in house prices. 

It's one of those situations where it's hard to see how it gets fixed. Maybe now that the property values have risen a lot and new people moved in from other cities during Covid, maybe culturally it can improve over the next few years. If it doesn't I'd expect the market here to collapse hard when we have another housing bust, like it did in the GFC.

And yes I agree with the part of getting people to do what you paid them to do is difficult. The idea that if you have the money you can get a job done really doesn't hold true in the Poconos! 

I think we are more in 2002/2003 than 2007. Demographics are bullish over the next few years with millennials finally moving out(late) zoomers may start as well and we are in an undersupplied/underbuilt market in many places. 

There's a lot of stock/WSB money out there along with crypto that is held by young people still living at home, this creates a higher bid and cash bid. Add in institutions who are systematizing rentals and you get an even higher bid as they reach some economies of scale and are willing to accept lower yields than small investors. 

In addition places like biggerpockets and other real estate knowledge mediums will also contribute to higher house prices(I don't mean this in a negative way but as everyone figures out things like house hacking it drives prices up) 

People and maybe eventually banks will start to buy/write loans not based on just the person's income, but let's say they buy a 4-bedroom and can rent 2/3 rooms on Airbnb. I think people will start to reach higher for more house knowing this(probably already have but more will do so) and eventually traditional financial institutions or new FinTech firms will capitalize that short-term rent potential into larger loan eligibility.

Things like work from home obviously accelerated the shake-up and gave people an ability to get out of the mega-cities like New York or LA. And move either to a cheaper often smaller city or just have a longer commute since they might only need to commute twice a week instead of five times.

I originally posted this in a different thread, but I figured it would make a good standalone post for anyone thinking of getting involved in the Poconos

As someone who's lived in the Poconos both part-time a full-time over the last four years, I'll give a bit of a rundown of things I've experienced in the area.

I'll start with the good news. The good news is you can have a profitable STR there, over 20% return per year is possible.

Now here is the bad news, some things I've experienced personally or had a friend experience.

-Broken labor market, let's take a simple task like getting the lawn mowed. I had a guy who did this for me one year, then the following year he did it at the open of the season, then stopped showing up all while repeatedly apologizing and promising to get it done. Making excuses like a broken mower, back problems etc. So this should be a simple fix- just get a new guy. I had to call about 10 companies repeatedly, most never answer/phone was disconnected. Some that answered were completely booked and would not accept clients. Another guy accepted me was going to do it for about double the normal price but then supposedly when he showed up his mower broke. Finally, I got a company to handle it after like 10 failures.

-Meth problems, I had a subcontractor under my GC go ballistic, show up at a job site after he was fired, high on meth, making paranoid allegations at everyone. This is apparently not uncommon in the area I've heard meth is an issue. This is my only experience with it so far.

-Alcohol problems. I had two different subcontractors(under a different GC from above) who ended up in jail for DWI's(two offenses and you do six months). One of them painted half my house then disappeared, I asked my GC and he was in jail for DWI. Mind you both of these sub-contractors did good work and were nice guys, not poorly spoken etc. But unreliable.

-A friend of mine who is a GC out there has been telling me for years he constantly has workers who work for him who just disappear at some point, stop answering their phones etc.

-Now let's talk utility costs- a lot of people from NYC who have natural gas heating don't realize the Poconos is electric only. Electric heat means way more $$$$. How much am I talking? A four-bedroom house during a cold winter can run you $1400 IN ONE MONTH. I had a guy driving around my neighbor in a panic his first winter here, asking people if they had any firewood to sell because his bill was $1400. Personally, I've my bill come in at $800 for one month during a cold winter and that's on a 2bedroom 1400Square foot house and I'm a young guy who likes the cold so it wasn't cranked up to 75 more like 65degrees.

-Next, let's talk regulation. You're supposed to get a permit from the township(Although plenty don't) The real thing to worry about is the HOA. What is the community manager like? Do they permit STR? And even if they do are they going to make a nightmare to get it permitted? How about the neighbors? I had one property I was considering, looked like a great buy. But something didn't sit right it was way too residential community living, people who will definitely call the cops if there's any noise. So I call the HOA and she tells me it's permitted but the neighbors call the police all the time and they just had two people sell their STR after less than a year. I got lucky on that one, dodged a bullet.

-Crime. I haven't had too much issue with crime personally. But I've had a cleaner of mine tell me that a few years ago break-ins were very commonplace. One experience I've had was maybe 1,000 square feet of decking being stolen from my contractor. Now he did leave it in the front yard for a few days(100-foot driveway) but that's still not a great sign. Another house I bought as rehab was severely vandalized(before I bought it).

-Power outages. At least once a year I lose a freezer full of food due to a power outage. In 2018 we had almost a two-week power outage, now that was exceptional but my point is the infrastructure is not like that of a city it's very common for the power to go out. Recently had a storm blow a transformer near a LTR of mine, now I have to replace the oven which was affected by the blowout(fire department showed up when tenant smelled burning wires)

-Septic tank and Well water. Most houses are not on city water/sewage but have a septic tank and well. I've had my septic tank replaced for just under 5k. But I have heard they can run up to 20k in certain situations. Likewise a Well pump replacement may cost you in the 1-3k range. These are costs you don't usually encounter in city living and should be aware of.

-Flooding. It rains A LOT in the Poconos. Especially this past year. Make sure your crawlspace or basement is properly waterproofed and has a sup-pump installed. And even then occasionally you'll get the combination of- Power outage + lots of rain so your basement/crawlspace will be flooded because the sup-pump is not going to work when the power is out.

-Competition. Everyone and their brother was coming up to the Poconos from NYC/NJ and bidding on houses either for a vacation house or to start a STR during covid. I've seen a lot pop up in my neighborhood alone. That doesn't mean it's not profitable now, just expect more competition over the next year as everyone finishes their STR renovations and launches their "easy way to make some side income". On the bright side maybe some of those same people will launch reliable cleaning/snow clearing services as they realize there is a large demand for that.


That's all I can think of for now. I'll update this thread if I can think of anything else and welcome any questions!

Feel free to post your own Pocono experiences, both good and bad, to help new people have an idea of what it's going to take.

To end on a positive note, if you already have a great team in place or are buying a great house in a good location the Poconos is a beautiful place and can make a really great STR!

Thank you! I think I'll make it a stand-alone post on the STR board since it's kind of long and I think it will help a lot of people just starting out.

I see you are also in the Pocono's area maybe we should connect one day, it's hard building a network out here and I'm always looking to meet people doing Real Estate in the area.

Hmm thank you for the detailed reply. I was aware of the franchise aspect but not the other details.

I guess my next question would be how to get in touch with this person- the local tenant rep commercial leasing broker

Yeah it really makes you question your faith in people trying to make things work out there. Getting things working in the Poconos can be a bit like eating a bowl of broken glass for breakfast, if you can't stomach that I'd recommend just buying somewhere else.

As someone who's lived in the Poconos both part-time a full-time over the last four years, I'll give a bit of a rundown of things I've experienced in the area.

I'll start with the good news. The good news is you can have a profitable STR there, over 20% return per year is possible.

Now here is the bad news, some things I've experienced personally or had a friend experience. 

-Broken labor market, let's take a simple task like getting the lawn mowed. I had a guy who did this for me one year, then the following year he did it at the open of the season, then stopped showing up all while repeatedly apologizing and promising to get it done. Making excuses like a broken mower, back problems etc. So this should be a simple fix- just get a new guy. I had to call about 10 companies repeadly, most never answer/phone was disconnected. Some that answered were completely booked and would not accept clients. Another guy accepted me was going to do it for about double the normal price but then supposedly when he showed up his mower broke. Finally, I got a company to handle it after like 10 failures.

-Meth problems, I had a subcontractor under my GC go ballistic, show up at a job site after he was fired, high on meth, making paranoid allegations at everyone. This is apparently not uncommon in the area I've heard meth is an issue. This is my only experience with it so far.

-Alcohol problems. I had two different subcontractors(under a different GC from above) who ended up in jail for DWI's(two offenses and you do six months). One of them painted half my house then disappeared, I asked my GC and he was in jail for DWI. Mind you both of these sub-contractors did good work and were nice guys, not poorly spoken etc. But unreliable.

-A friend of mine who is a GC out there has been telling me for years he constantly has workers who work for him who just disappear at some point, stop answering their phones etc.

-Now let's talk utility costs- a lot of people from NYC who have natural gas heating don't realize the Poconos is electric only. Electric heat means way more $$$$. How much am I talking? A four-bedroom house during a cold winter can run you $1400 IN ONE MONTH. I had a guy driving around my neighbor in a panic his first winter here, asking people if they had any firewood to sell because his bill was $1400. Personally, I've my bill come in at $800 for one month during a cold winter and that's on a 2bedroom 1400Square foot house and I'm a young guy who likes the cold so it wasn't cranked up to 75 more like 65degrees.

-Next, let's talk regulation. You're supposed to get a permit from the township(Although plenty don't) The real thing to worry about is the HOA. What is the community manager like? Do they permit STR? And even if they do are they going to make a nightmare to get it permitted? How about the neighbors? I had one property I was considering, looked like a great buy. But something didn't sit right it was way too residential community living, people who will definitely call the cops if there's any noise. So I call the HOA and she tells me it's permitted but the neighbors call the police all the time and they just had two people sell their STR after less than a year. I got lucky on that one, dodged a bullet.

-Crime. I haven't had too much issue with crime personally. But I've had a cleaner of mine tell me that a few years ago break-ins were very commonplace. One experience I've had was maybe 1,000 square feet of decking being stolen from my contractor. Now he did leave it in the front yard for a few days(100-foot driveway) but that's still not a great sign. Another house I bought as rehab was severely vandalized(before I bought it). 

-Power outages. At least once a year I lose a freezer full of food due to a power outage. In 2018 we had almost a two-week power outage, now that was exceptional but my point is the infrastructure is not like that of a city it's very common for the power to go out. Recently had a storm blow a transformer near a LTR of mine, now I have to replace the oven which was affected by the blowout(fire department showed up when tenant smelled burning wires) 

-Septic tank and Well water. Most houses are not on city water/sewage but have a septic tank and well. I've had my septic tank replaced for just under 5k. But I have heard they can run up to 20k in certain situations. Like wise a Well pump replacement may cost you in the 1-3k range. These are costs you don't usually encounter in city living and should be aware of.

-Flooding. It rains A LOT in the Poconos. Especially this past year. Make sure your crawlspace or basement is properly water proofed and has a sup-pump installed. And even then occially you'll get the combination of- Power outage + lot's of rain so your basement/crawlspace will be flooded because the sup-pump is not going to work when the power is out.

-Competition. Everyone and their brother was coming up to the Poconos from NYC/NJ and bidding on houses either for a vacation house or to start a STR during covid. I've seen a lot pop up in my neighborhood alone. Doesn't mean it's not profitable now, just expect more competition over the next year as everyone finishes their STR renovations and launches their "easy way to make some side income". On the brightside maybe some of those same people will launch reliable cleaning/snow clearing services as they realize there is large demand for that.


Thats all I can think of for now. I might make this it's own post since I think it might be useful for people interested in the area.

To end on a positive note, if you already have a great team in place or are buying a great house in a good location the Poconos is a beautiful place and can make a really great STR!

Recently obtained a drive-through commercial building in a growing area of the Poconos. High traffic road that would make a great location for a Starbucks, close to both a college and high school. Was wondering if how to start the process of getting Starbucks interested. I don't want to run a Starbucks just rent to them. The building would need to be renovated to fit their style of course, do they have their own corporate team that does the renovations or would I have to get my own contractor to do it?

Any help/advice in this situation would be appreciated! This is my first commercial property but I was very familiar with the area and it seemed like a lot of potential so I went for it.