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All Forum Posts by: Thomas Rutkowski

Thomas Rutkowski has started 20 posts and replied 796 times.

Post: Paradigm Life, Infinite Banking, Whole Life Insurance

Thomas Rutkowski
#5 Personal Finance Contributor
Posted
  • Financial Advisor
  • Boynton Beach, FL
  • Posts 813
  • Votes 788
Quote from @Mike S.:
Quote from @Tommy Feraco Jr:

@Thomas Rutkowski Thank you for your insight into this topic. I did have a question. So, why wouldn't I just continue to utilize the BRRRR method or HELOCs to pull out capital on investment as using it on another property? I am definitely new to this strategy, but I feel that using overfunded life insurance is the same notion as the two strategies mentioned.

I am also asking due to the fact that I am working with an agent now and wanted to learn more about this topic from this platform. I currently have two properties with about 50k in equity that I could BRRRR. So, would it make sense to even use this investment vehicle for my situation?

Using an overfunded permanent life insurance policy is not in replacement of other investment strategies. It is in addition to them.

So instead of just doing your BRRRR, you are putting all your cash flow back into life insurance premium, you are then borrowing from the life insurance to reinvest in your next BRRRR.

By adding the life insurance in your flow, you are increasing your return on the long term, but it will for the first four to seven years add a little big more drag. You are also protecting your family with a substantial life insurance death benefit if something happens to you. As a side bonus, the life insurance is creditor protected so you also get some asset protection too.

 The only thing I'll add to what @Mike S. stated is that you are right, they are very similar. If you understand the concept of leveraging property to further investments, then you understand the concept of leveraging the cash value of a life insurance policy. One thing to keep in mind is just how much you can leverage. Compare the LTV of the HELOC to the LTV of the life insurance policy loan. The policy loan is 90 to 96%. This means that you can put much more of your money to work in two places at one time.

Post: Whole Life Insurance

Thomas Rutkowski
#5 Personal Finance Contributor
Posted
  • Financial Advisor
  • Boynton Beach, FL
  • Posts 813
  • Votes 788
Quote from @Muhammad Amawi:
Quote from @Thomas Rutkowski:
Quote from @Muhammad Amawi:

As someone who used to sell Whole Life Insurance I can tell you it is a great savings vehicle. It's best you get started now while you're young because it is very inexpensive for a ton of permanent insurance. 

Now when it comes to using the cash value down the road, understand that we're talking 10+ years down the road. The cash value will build quicker from having a larger policy. Also note that when pulling from some cash value accounts, their may be a requirement to pay it back. (you may be able to defer this to come out of the death payment.)

I personally do use whole life insurance for everything you stated above, as well as providing the financial protecting for my loved ones if something were to happen to myself sooner than expected.

Let me know if you need an agent reference.


 I think that you are confusing a typical whole life policy with a maximum over-funded policy. Several of the things you state are simply not true.

1. The cash value of a maximum over-funded policy can be leveraged from Day 1. If a policy owner puts in a $50,000 annual premium, they will have access to over $40,000 IMMEDIATELY (regardless of age. See #3)

2. Policy loans don't have to be paid back ever. There just needs to be enough cash value to secure the loan. This is how a Life Insurance Retirement Plan (LIRP) works. When the policy owner dies, the loan is paid off from the death benefit. When you leverage the cash value to invest in real estate, the policy owner will typically only pay the interest on the policy loan. They'll keep the loan in place for as long as it is making them money.

3. Age doesn't matter in a maximum over-funded policy. Sure, if you NEED a $1M death benefit, then it will get more expensive as you get older. But in a maximum over-funded policy, we typically start with the premium and work backward to find the lowest death benefit that will still legally qualify as life insurance. So whether you are 25 or 55, the same premium will result in roughly the same cash value ratios.


 I'm not confusing it with anything. As I'm sure you're aware, there are a thousand different options for whole life policies provided across the board that will slightly vary in how payouts and draws are made. You are speaking on a maximum over funded policy as where I am speaking of just one type of whole life policy offered on the market. In that exact whole life product I was referencing, when you take a draw from the cash value, it did have to be paid back.

Honestly, it seems as if we're talking about two completely different types of products that are structured entirely different. Everything I stated was true per the whole life product I was mentioning as I'm sure the same goes for the type of policy/product you're referencing. Thank you for your insight

You are correct in that they are the same exact same products. However, you are still wrong on the 3 points I made above. That is the difference that policy design makes. This is why we continually see agents in these forums stressing the importance of designing these policies properly.

Post: Whole Life Insurance

Thomas Rutkowski
#5 Personal Finance Contributor
Posted
  • Financial Advisor
  • Boynton Beach, FL
  • Posts 813
  • Votes 788
Quote from @Muhammad Amawi:

As someone who used to sell Whole Life Insurance I can tell you it is a great savings vehicle. It's best you get started now while you're young because it is very inexpensive for a ton of permanent insurance. 

Now when it comes to using the cash value down the road, understand that we're talking 10+ years down the road. The cash value will build quicker from having a larger policy. Also note that when pulling from some cash value accounts, their may be a requirement to pay it back. (you may be able to defer this to come out of the death payment.)

I personally do use whole life insurance for everything you stated above, as well as providing the financial protecting for my loved ones if something were to happen to myself sooner than expected.

Let me know if you need an agent reference.


 I think that you are confusing a typical whole life policy with a maximum over-funded policy. Several of the things you state are simply not true.

1. The cash value of a maximum over-funded policy can be leveraged from Day 1. If a policy owner puts in a $50,000 annual premium, they will have access to over $40,000 IMMEDIATELY (regardless of age. See #3)

2. Policy loans don't have to be paid back ever. There just needs to be enough cash value to secure the loan. This is how a Life Insurance Retirement Plan (LIRP) works. When the policy owner dies, the loan is paid off from the death benefit. When you leverage the cash value to invest in real estate, the policy owner will typically only pay the interest on the policy loan. They'll keep the loan in place for as long as it is making them money.

3. Age doesn't matter in a maximum over-funded policy. Sure, if you NEED a $1M death benefit, then it will get more expensive as you get older. But in a maximum over-funded policy, we typically start with the premium and work backward to find the lowest death benefit that will still legally qualify as life insurance. So whether you are 25 or 55, the same premium will result in roughly the same cash value ratios.

Post: Using life insurance to buy real estate

Thomas Rutkowski
#5 Personal Finance Contributor
Posted
  • Financial Advisor
  • Boynton Beach, FL
  • Posts 813
  • Votes 788

Some people here are over complicating the issue. The beauty of leveraging the cash value of a life insurance policy for real estate investing is this:

If you can put your money into an asset growing at 6% per year, and you can borrow against that asset at 5%, then anything you do with that 5% money is going to add value on top of the cash value. And the interest deduction will add a further tax advantage.

That's it. It's not a get rich quick scheme. It's just a systematic way to build more wealth over time than if you simply invested directly in real estate.

Post: Using life insurance to buy real estate

Thomas Rutkowski
#5 Personal Finance Contributor
Posted
  • Financial Advisor
  • Boynton Beach, FL
  • Posts 813
  • Votes 788
Quote from @Ryan Kempkens:
Quote from @Khari F.:
Quote from @Michael A.:
Quote from @Khari F.:

How does insurance company qualify/underwrite you? Seasoning period?

It’s based on your age, health and financials. The better health you have the better cost of insurance. This will allow you to optimize the policy in the most efficient way. Once you know what product and amount of money to put into it: you sign an application, do a medical exam where the nurse comes to your house for 10 minutes (insurance company pays for it), then sign off on the policy and submit your check. 

You can use these insurance machines for tax-free income, buying real estate, storing capital, estate Taxes, income protection, etc. 

Can parent borrow against insurance policy on child whose financials are great?

@Khari F. You don't have to qualify or have any seasoning period in these types of loans. Your thinking of them like bank financing which it is not, the loan provision in a whole life contract is a stipulation of the contract. Meaning that the insurance company has a contractual obligation to make the loan to you. This is why you can only get a loan up to the the cash value of the policy. 

If you put 20% down on a property from your saving or investments, you are no longer earning interest on that money. It may be earning a return from the RE investment but not interest directly from that money. If you had your wealth in a whole life policy and took a policy loan for that 20% down payment it doesn't come from your principal in the policy so you will still earn your guarantee rate plus the dividend rate on that 20% down payment and you've made the returns from the RE investment. Doing this puts you on the right side of Interest equation, using Whole Life in this way is a savings vehicle not an investment. It becomes powerful when you use your savings in it to fund your investments. 

Quick example: You have $100,000 in cash value in you policy vs. $100,000 in an investment account both earn on average 10% a year (just for easy math) You want to buy a $500,000 property

Whole Life- Your $100,000 in cash value is credited $10,000 (Policy loan interest rate are normally 5%-8% we'll say 8% to be conservative) $8,000 Deducted                      Net total is +$2000 credited to your whole life policy first year. If the property returns 10% Cash on cash return another $10,000                                          total of $12,000 on that $100,000 cash investment with the compounding effect in future years to magnify that with no opportunity cost 

Investment Account- If you sell an investment earning 10% a year to fund the down payment you still earn the COC return of $10,000 if the property preforms, your opportunity cost is then the 10% you lose in control of the investment account or $10,000. So it's a net $0 but with tax advantages and other reasons to invest in RE over other investments, that is an argument stock investors give, not mine personally

Saving Account- Down Payment from saving would be the same as Investment Account with mush less direct opportunity cost say you get 1% again for easy math, you would earn the $10,000 COC return year 1 with an opportunity cost of $1000 for $9000 net.

Hope this long winded example helps to clear up a little on what it means to use Whole Life for investing. It's more about a better way to deploy your capital than people thinking about it as an investment it's self. 

Be very careful if some one tries to sell you using Indexed Universal Life for this function, they are two very different products and policy loans in a IUL if not fully fund and paid back are dangerous to the policy. IUL's have their place but not as banking vehicle.   


Both IUL and WL can be used as banking vehicles. Most of my clients use IUL because they will typically outperform a similarly designed WL policy. I don't think you understand that under the hood they are virtually the same. Same cost of insurance. Same mortality tables. The main difference is that the interest crediting in an IUL should be greater than the dividend rate in a WL. They are, for all practical purposes, using the dividend they would have paid to hedge in the options markets to capture as much movement in the market index as they can get with the money they have to spend. Over time, this results in a premium over what they would have paid as a dividend.

If you lay a maximum over-funded whole life illustration alongside a maximum over-funded IUL illustration, they will be virtually identical for the life of the policy. Both the cash value and the death benefit will be identical. So tell me why the Whole Life can be leveraged and the IUL can not? 

Post: Using life insurance to buy real estate

Thomas Rutkowski
#5 Personal Finance Contributor
Posted
  • Financial Advisor
  • Boynton Beach, FL
  • Posts 813
  • Votes 788
Quote from @Ryan Kempkens:
Quote from @Amit Chawla:
Quote from @Ryan Kempkens:
Quote from @Khari F.:
Quote from @Michael A.:
Quote from @Khari F.:

How does insurance company qualify/underwrite you? Seasoning period?

It’s based on your age, health and financials. The better health you have the better cost of insurance. This will allow you to optimize the policy in the most efficient way. Once you know what product and amount of money to put into it: you sign an application, do a medical exam where the nurse comes to your house for 10 minutes (insurance company pays for it), then sign off on the policy and submit your check. 

You can use these insurance machines for tax-free income, buying real estate, storing capital, estate Taxes, income protection, etc. 

Can parent borrow against insurance policy on child whose financials are great?

@Khari F. You don't have to qualify or have any seasoning period in these types of loans. Your thinking of them like bank financing which it is not, the loan provision in a whole life contract is a stipulation of the contract. Meaning that the insurance company has a contractual obligation to make the loan to you. This is why you can only get a loan up to the the cash value of the policy. 

If you put 20% down on a property from your saving or investments, you are no longer earning interest on that money. It may be earning a return from the RE investment but not interest directly from that money. If you had your wealth in a whole life policy and took a policy loan for that 20% down payment it doesn't come from your principal in the policy so you will still earn your guarantee rate plus the dividend rate on that 20% down payment and you've made the returns from the RE investment. Doing this puts you on the right side of Interest equation, using Whole Life in this way is a savings vehicle not an investment. It becomes powerful when you use your savings in it to fund your investments. 

Quick example: You have $100,000 in cash value in you policy vs. $100,000 in an investment account both earn on average 10% a year (just for easy math) You want to buy a $500,000 property

Whole Life- Your $100,000 in cash value is credited $10,000 (Policy loan interest rate are normally 5%-8% we'll say 8% to be conservative) $8,000 Deducted                      Net total is +$2000 credited to your whole life policy first year. If the property returns 10% Cash on cash return another $10,000                                          total of $12,000 on that $100,000 cash investment with the compounding effect in future years to magnify that with no opportunity cost 

Investment Account- If you sell an investment earning 10% a year to fund the down payment you still earn the COC return of $10,000 if the property preforms, your opportunity cost is then the 10% you lose in control of the investment account or $10,000. So it's a net $0 but with tax advantages and other reasons to invest in RE over other investments, that is an argument stock investors give, not mine personally

Saving Account- Down Payment from saving would be the same as Investment Account with mush less direct opportunity cost say you get 1% again for easy math, you would earn the $10,000 COC return year 1 with an opportunity cost of $1000 for $9000 net.

Hope this long winded example helps to clear up a little on what it means to use Whole Life for investing. It's more about a better way to deploy your capital than people thinking about it as an investment it's self. 

Be very careful if some one tries to sell you using Indexed Universal Life for this function, they are two very different products and policy loans in a IUL if not fully fund and paid back are dangerous to the policy. IUL's have their place but not as banking vehicle.   

Where I get confused is this: 

 How much would have to be put into a policy in order to have a cash value of $100,000 vs putting $100,000 in the bank?  Im guessing you obviously have to put more into the policy in order to reach that cash value of $100,000.  So if I am just starting investing, wouldn't it be easier for me to save $100,000 instead of trying to get a whole life policy with a cash-value of $100,000?  So yes, I might get a slightly better return on the policy, but it would take me far longer to get to that cash value vs putting it in an account.


 Every situation is different based on goals and time horizons, structured properly you should be able to get around 90% of your money into the cash value right away. Your not going to be able to stay under the MEC line with a single deposit of $100,000 but if you made it a 5 pay contract with $20k a year with a 90/10 design ( $18,000 going to Paid up Addition and $2000 going to death benefit) you should be at or close to break even by year 4.5 or 5. It's beyond the scope of a forum post to go to far into policy design but it when used properly its a great tool, when structured wrong it's more expensive than the tax benefits are worth and benefit the insurance salesman more. You have to use the right product and the right agent 


 You may see 90% as the end of Year 1 cash value on an illustration, but it is important to understand that the illustration is showing the total cash value AFTER the dividend has been paid. The amount of cash value available on Day 1 will be closer to 85% in a properly-designed policy.

Post: Whole Life Insurance

Thomas Rutkowski
#5 Personal Finance Contributor
Posted
  • Financial Advisor
  • Boynton Beach, FL
  • Posts 813
  • Votes 788

@Zackary Thomas

Here is a link to one of the oldest and most thorough threads on this topic:

https://www.biggerpockets.com/...

It absolutely works. It can be done with either whole life or IUL. Under the hood, they are exactly the same. The only difference is how they credit the interest/dividends. If you lay two illustrations side by side, with apples-to-apples assumptions, they will be virtually identical. The internal cost of insurance is the same since all companies work off the same mortality tables.

Post: Syndication Strategy using HELOC funds

Thomas Rutkowski
#5 Personal Finance Contributor
Posted
  • Financial Advisor
  • Boynton Beach, FL
  • Posts 813
  • Votes 788
Quote from @Jim Pfeifer:

I think this can be an effective strategy depending on a number of factors - I do this type of investing both with my HELOC and the cash value in my life insurance (using the life insurance avoids the variable interest rate issue).

You need to make sure that the investment you are making will have enough of a cash on cash return to cover the interest payment - as several have said here, that is tougher now that interest rates have increased on HELOC's. I think it still could be an effective strategy if you have enough capital to pay the interest even if the cash flow from the investment doesn't - you could still be net positive on the investment when the deal goes full cycle and you pay off the loan and the accumulated interest. Having capital on the side to pay the interest just adds a margin of safety.

There are more factors to look at than just the interest rate spread between the loan and the expected distributions.  The interest on the loan will be coming no matter what - the distributions might not.  Many operators have frozen distributions as they learn to deal with higher interest rates and operating costs.  There will tax benefits in the form of depreciation and interest payments as an expense (consult your CPA).

I currently do this with investments with higher cash on cash returns and lower operational risk than multifamily because the spread on multifamily is lower or gone these days.  It really depends on how comfortable you are with the operator and their plan - because if you do this type of investing in an asset where the cash flow does not cover the interest payment, you are counting on appreciation rather than cash flow and I never want to count on appreciation.

This strategy can effectively create money from nothing - you borrow to invest in an asset, pay the loan and interest back and you either have cash or the asset and you have no skin in the game.  It's a great way to accelerate your wealth - it's also a way to get overleveraged and get into problems if you are not careful and intentional about it!


 If you are leveraging the cash value of a life insurance policy for syndications, you really shouldn't be using a policy loan. You need the tax deduction for the interest expense. Policy loan interest is technically a personal loan and the interest is not tax-deductible. I recommend that my clients use a cash value line of credit from a 3d party bank. This way the loan can be a business loan and is secured by an assignment of collateral against the policy.

Post: Using life insurance to buy real estate

Thomas Rutkowski
#5 Personal Finance Contributor
Posted
  • Financial Advisor
  • Boynton Beach, FL
  • Posts 813
  • Votes 788
Quote from @Michelle Hall:

Hey Michael,

I used to have an IUL with national life until I found out that their fees including the life insurance cost is about 1/3 of everything that I deposited, so it was going to take a while to accumulate cash value in the account. 

How do you convince your clients to do this with the high fees? Do you still think it's worth it? 


 Your policy wasn't designed for maximum cash value. A policy can have a death benefit or cash value focus. A properly-designed, maximum over-funded policy will have about 85% of the premium going to the cash value. When that cash value is growing and you can get a loan against it to invest in real estate, you will be making more than if you simply invested directly in the same exact investment.

Post: Using life insurance to buy real estate

Thomas Rutkowski
#5 Personal Finance Contributor
Posted
  • Financial Advisor
  • Boynton Beach, FL
  • Posts 813
  • Votes 788

This topic is not new to BP. This is one of the oldest and most comprehensive discussions:

https://www.biggerpockets.com/...