flip rehabs/returns - how do i compete?

[Ronald Ty]

i am having trouble competing with other flippers. i try to do things the right way (pull permits) & use contractors/hvac/plumbing/electricians who, i feel, give me the best bang for the buck. and we all know the cost of things, and labor, have risen dramatically lately.

i pay cash for my homes and hit the sales price i anticipated beforehand.  

the problem i am having is getting my rehab numbers in line. i feel other investors are doing rentals or doing some/all the work themselves and/or not pulling permits. 

i should also mention, i do not need to flip. i can live off the returns i get in my bond/stock portfolio (w/ a lot less taxes paid). however, i like to flip 1x/year to keep me from getting bored and get that satisfaction from "working" (i retired 4 years ago). 

and no, i am not interested in doing rentals. :)

[Andy Sabisch]

What permits are required depends on your specific location - some areas are more lenient than others.  With that said, yes, flippers can and do a lot of the work themselves to save costs but that all comes with a potential downside.  If a permit is required and was not pulled, you can be red tagged and then you will have an inspector on your back until the project is done and likely on future projects.  Another downside if if you sell the house and permits were not pulled and there is an issue with one of the systems that required one, you as the flipper can be legally liable for having done the work uninsured and without a permit.  I find it a lot easier and less stressful to get a licensed trades person to pull a permit for jobs where it is required than cut costs and not.  I have had trades people quote me two prices - one with permits and one without.  I tend to find another person to do the work.  I understand that in many cases the local inspector knows far less than the person that did the work but at least it was permitted and inspected.

If your numbers are coming in where you want them and the profit is there, I would not worry about the corners other flippers are cutting as it sounds like you are doing it the right way.

[Chris Seveney]

@Scott Williamson

It’s not about the permits - are you referring to more unlicensed contractors

Also we are seeing fix and flips in our area and now having dramatic price drops so they are not making any money. I think that is more the case than anything

[Carlton B.]

I can relate with the retiring and being bored. First pulling permits should not be that big of an expense, and there is other ways to keep your expenses down. Yes you can do some work yourself things like painting, demo, and trash removal. With that said probably the biggest ways to improve your bottom line is improve efficiencies. Keeping contractors on budget, on time, and material cost down. You have to keep your eyes on the bottom line. 

[Ronald Ty]

I guess where I screwed up are my numbers. Thought 90k rehab and it is looking like 110k. It was a wholesale deal so I missed some stuff and I haven't done a rehab in a few years so prices went up. 

hvac 6500, wood floors 6k, drywall 5k. Electric 4500, permits 1200, power wash siding 500, cabinets 8500, appliances 3700, quartz 5800, insulate 450, tile 6k, demo/dumpsters 6k, mold/vapor barrier crawlspace 2k, doors%closets 3k, subfloor repair 1800, plumbing/fixtures 14k, exterior window/door/fascia replacement 2k, knobs/shelves 3k, replace 1 car garage door and motor 2k, staging/marketing/stamps 500, framing/remove wall/LVL beam/architect 6300, trim/crown/casing 2k, reseal driveway 600, mudjack 1500, paint interior/exterior 7k, maid, etc 1k, demo concrete side patio and seed with dumpster 1700, landscape 1k, replace 8 windows and sliding patio, shower glass door 5500

total rehab 107k

[Carlton B.]

Everyone does there rehabs different depending on your buyers expectations, but you could make up some of the cost with materials like chopping block counters and maybe some of the plumbing fixture. 

[Ronald Ty]

Quote from @Carlton B.:

Everyone does there rehabs different depending on your buyers expectations, but you could make up some of the cost with materials like chopping block counters and maybe some of the plumbing fixture.

I guess I could, however, this is a 425k 1600sq foot ranch home with a 1 car garage. Would save some $ but don't think I'd get an offer. Competition is all quartz and plumbing fixtures aren't too crazy expensive.  It's a 107k rehab. I'm prolly not going to save a ton here. I've found when I cut corners, especially on labor, then that's when it gets expensive. Got to hire another person to rip it out and start all over again. So double the labor and material then. 

[Ronald Ty]

Add another 2k to this. The garage floor is unlevel and needs to be mud jacked on the left side. Garage door won't be level.

stuff they don't show you on those flippjg shows. It's so easy! Not !

[Account Closed]

If anyone wants to cut costs by using our contractor discount at any SW in the US let me know.  No catch, my SW rep set it up for anyone to use.

[Ronald Ty]

Quote from @Account Closed:

If anyone wants to cut costs by using our contractor discount at any SW in the US let me know.  No catch, my SW rep set it up for anyone to use.

 So here's 1 for ya. My carpenter said he knew all these trades with great prices. No need to use my normal guys. So they all show up. Tile guy wants 7k labor only to do 2 small bathrooms, a shower and backslash. I tell him he's nuts. He (gc) brought in his tile guy. So tile does work, gc gets a cut, carpenter gets a cut.

I go with my normal guy and he is at 3k.

And the carpenter suddenly can't give me a price until later (even though he always quoted b4 demo even Started).

I'm fed up. I tell him, "I need a quote now. Don't let me start searching for new carpenters." He replies with his price which is reasonable.

Moral of the story is don't let these guys get greed and push you around.  Dont trist them either or they will drag you out. They will with time, no doubt.

[Carlos Ptriawan]

Quote from @Ronald Ty:

I guess where I screwed up are my numbers. Thought 90k rehab and it is looking like 110k. It was a wholesale deal so I missed some stuff and I haven't done a rehab in a few years so prices went up. 

hvac 6500, wood floors 6k, drywall 5k. Electric 4500, permits 1200, power wash siding 500, cabinets 8500, appliances 3700, quartz 5800, insulate 450, tile 6k, demo/dumpsters 6k, mold/vapor barrier crawlspace 2k, doors%closets 3k, subfloor repair 1800, plumbing/fixtures 14k, exterior window/door/fascia replacement 2k, knobs/shelves 3k, replace 1 car garage door and motor 2k, staging/marketing/stamps 500, framing/remove wall/LVL beam/architect 6300, trim/crown/casing 2k, reseal driveway 600, mudjack 1500, paint interior/exterior 7k, maid, etc 1k, demo concrete side patio and seed with dumpster 1700, landscape 1k, replace 8 windows and sliding patio, shower glass door 5500

total rehab 107k

 I guess the most important aspect of house to be flip is what's your purchase price and what's your comps ?
Is this 2/1 configuration or 3/2 ? 

If it's 2/1 900 sqft, for example, I would rather sleeping than flip such house LOL, but you make money when you purchase rather than the rehab itself.

[Ronald Ty]

Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:

Quote from @Ronald Ty:

I guess where I screwed up are my numbers. Thought 90k rehab and it is looking like 110k. It was a wholesale deal so I missed some stuff and I haven't done a rehab in a few years so prices went up. 

hvac 6500, wood floors 6k, drywall 5k. Electric 4500, permits 1200, power wash siding 500, cabinets 8500, appliances 3700, quartz 5800, insulate 450, tile 6k, demo/dumpsters 6k, mold/vapor barrier crawlspace 2k, doors%closets 3k, subfloor repair 1800, plumbing/fixtures 14k, exterior window/door/fascia replacement 2k, knobs/shelves 3k, replace 1 car garage door and motor 2k, staging/marketing/stamps 500, framing/remove wall/LVL beam/architect 6300, trim/crown/casing 2k, reseal driveway 600, mudjack 1500, paint interior/exterior 7k, maid, etc 1k, demo concrete side patio and seed with dumpster 1700, landscape 1k, replace 8 windows and sliding patio, shower glass door 5500

total rehab 107k

 I guess the most important aspect of house to be flip is what's your purchase price and what's your comps ?
Is this 2/1 configuration or 3/2 ? 

If it's 2/1 900 sqft, for example, I would rather sleeping than flip such house LOL, but you make money when you purchase rather than the rehab itself.

It's a 3/2 1600 Sq foot ranch on a 3 foot crawlspace with an attached 1 car garage. Of course, I know you make your $ when you buy. I did several reconfigures (take out a wall, move laundry from kitchen to a bedroom closet, move shower and expand it). Thinking I will still make $ (5% appreciation in this town since 2022) so that's a good thing. 

[Jaron Walling]

Rehab $110K + PP $____ = ____ 

ARV= $____ ? Comps still looking good?

The markets are strong for quality properties in decent locations. People are buying it's just slower and +/- 5% of asking prices.  

The rehab breakdown seems reasonable to me but you're over paying left and right. My opinion is jaded as I've DIY a bit of our rehabs. How many dumpsters does a 3/2, 1600 sqft house require? That demo charge is nuts. What quality cabinets are you installing? Assuming that includes labor for installation it still feels high $$$. You did great on the interior/exterior painting though. My mom runs a small painting company. Her quote would have been higher. That carpenter was trying to catch you. I would have told him the same thing! Next time ask him if he thinks this project is a charity. 

[Carlos Ptriawan]

Quote from @Ronald Ty:

Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:

Quote from @Ronald Ty:

I guess where I screwed up are my numbers. Thought 90k rehab and it is looking like 110k. It was a wholesale deal so I missed some stuff and I haven't done a rehab in a few years so prices went up. 

hvac 6500, wood floors 6k, drywall 5k. Electric 4500, permits 1200, power wash siding 500, cabinets 8500, appliances 3700, quartz 5800, insulate 450, tile 6k, demo/dumpsters 6k, mold/vapor barrier crawlspace 2k, doors%closets 3k, subfloor repair 1800, plumbing/fixtures 14k, exterior window/door/fascia replacement 2k, knobs/shelves 3k, replace 1 car garage door and motor 2k, staging/marketing/stamps 500, framing/remove wall/LVL beam/architect 6300, trim/crown/casing 2k, reseal driveway 600, mudjack 1500, paint interior/exterior 7k, maid, etc 1k, demo concrete side patio and seed with dumpster 1700, landscape 1k, replace 8 windows and sliding patio, shower glass door 5500

total rehab 107k

 I guess the most important aspect of house to be flip is what's your purchase price and what's your comps ?
Is this 2/1 configuration or 3/2 ? 

If it's 2/1 900 sqft, for example, I would rather sleeping than flip such house LOL, but you make money when you purchase rather than the rehab itself.

It's a 3/2 1600 Sq foot ranch on a 3 foot crawlspace with an attached 1 car garage. Of course, I know you make your $ when you buy. I did several reconfigures (take out a wall, move laundry from kitchen to a bedroom closet, move shower and expand it). Thinking I will still make $ (5% appreciation in this town since 2022) so that's a good thing. 

 still we need to have more information like comps.low and comps.high when you did purchase, it really matter what's the diff between your PSF and low comps to the area when you purchase. My expectation when I do rehab is to purchase below low comps and sell at higher than high comps; I sell it always on Feb-April time frame.

Your rehab is generally looks fine except the plumbing and anything more than 6k seems bit high but generally expected. Are you using multiple contractor or the a single person that's managing it all for you ? it makes huge difference when one guy can manage multiple specialist. 

The market of 5% appreciation rate is there regardless.

[Ronald Ty]

Quote from @Jaron Walling:

Rehab $110K + PP $____ = ____ 

ARV= $____ ? Comps still looking good?

The markets are strong for quality properties in decent locations. People are buying it's just slower and +/- 5% of asking prices.  

The rehab breakdown seems reasonable to me but you're over paying left and right. My opinion is jaded as I've DIY a bit of our rehabs. How many dumpsters does a 3/2, 1600 sqft house require? That demo charge is nuts. What quality cabinets are you installing? Assuming that includes labor for installation it still feels high $$$. You did great on the interior/exterior painting though. My mom runs a small painting company. Her quote would have been higher. That carpenter was trying to catch you. I would have told him the same thing! Next time ask him if he thinks this project is a charity. 

[Jaron Walling]

@Ronald Ty If you have drawings that's a level of rehab outside of my wheel house. Unless the market and comps command that level of detail I'd be cutting material costs. Probably can't do much about the labor... other than the carpenter. 

[Ronald Ty]

You will see this is a pretty big kitchen. $6500 includes both bathroom vanities (master is a double faucet). 36 uppers with crown and a 72 island. All wood. The labor is broken up. It's $3500 labor only to do all doors, cabinets/vanities, casing, trim, knobs crown molding whole house and decorative molding over some windows/doors and the LVL beam.

I have 8 dumpstes at $500 a pop. Furniture left behind, etc. 

I should have broken down the labor foe you with a description. Maybe do that later for education purposes to news.

I can't compete with DIY :)

Purchase 285k, arv 450. No Bueno.

Rehab looking like 113k now ?

[Jaron Walling]

@Ronald Ty 8 dumpsters!? That's amazing by it's self. Sounds like a beautiful property man. Very much B+/A class neighborhood. 

[Carlos Ptriawan]

Quote from @Ronald Ty:

Quote from @Jaron Walling:

Rehab $110K + PP $____ = ____ 

ARV= $____ ? Comps still looking good?

The markets are strong for quality properties in decent locations. People are buying it's just slower and +/- 5% of asking prices.  

The rehab breakdown seems reasonable to me but you're over paying left and right. My opinion is jaded as I've DIY a bit of our rehabs. How many dumpsters does a 3/2, 1600 sqft house require? That demo charge is nuts. What quality cabinets are you installing? Assuming that includes labor for installation it still feels high $$$. You did great on the interior/exterior painting though. My mom runs a small painting company. Her quote would have been higher. That carpenter was trying to catch you. I would have told him the same thing! Next time ask him if he thinks this project is a charity. 

 You should target selling it for $300 PSF. Dont settle for below 480k. Your purchase price is fine as well. Congrats!

[Carlos Ptriawan]

in my very personal analysis, you *should not* sell this asap ; sell it within 3 years time frame. You would make more money even to the 600s.

There're lot of market changes in this area, the inventory supply was big prior to 2021 for this particular market but after oct 2022 nobody is selling right now and this is the sample of market that would experience price spike in the next few years.

[Ronald Ty]

Quote from @Jaron Walling:

@Ronald Ty If you have drawings that's a level of rehab outside of my wheel house. Unless the market value and comps command that level of detail I'd be cutting material projects. 

Comps do support this style of rehab. Open concept and island and kitchen layout. Same thing with moving and expanding the shower. I'm not leaving a washer and dryer and glass shower door so there is some standard cutting. I have done 10 of these and always have set a new comp. Will see if this happens again. Of course, can only go so high based upon the market and appreciation. At least the values arent going down right now. :)

the furnace was newer but a bad install. Hvac had to go in the crawlspace to take it put and put it back in. Stuff like that happens as we all know. It's not all perfect as much as we try. Stuff happens. 

[Ronald Ty]

Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:

Quote from @Ronald Ty:

Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:

Quote from @Ronald Ty:

I guess where I screwed up are my numbers. Thought 90k rehab and it is looking like 110k. It was a wholesale deal so I missed some stuff and I haven't done a rehab in a few years so prices went up. 

hvac 6500, wood floors 6k, drywall 5k. Electric 4500, permits 1200, power wash siding 500, cabinets 8500, appliances 3700, quartz 5800, insulate 450, tile 6k, demo/dumpsters 6k, mold/vapor barrier crawlspace 2k, doors%closets 3k, subfloor repair 1800, plumbing/fixtures 14k, exterior window/door/fascia replacement 2k, knobs/shelves 3k, replace 1 car garage door and motor 2k, staging/marketing/stamps 500, framing/remove wall/LVL beam/architect 6300, trim/crown/casing 2k, reseal driveway 600, mudjack 1500, paint interior/exterior 7k, maid, etc 1k, demo concrete side patio and seed with dumpster 1700, landscape 1k, replace 8 windows and sliding patio, shower glass door 5500

total rehab 107k

 I guess the most important aspect of house to be flip is what's your purchase price and what's your comps ?
Is this 2/1 configuration or 3/2 ? 

If it's 2/1 900 sqft, for example, I would rather sleeping than flip such house LOL, but you make money when you purchase rather than the rehab itself.

It's a 3/2 1600 Sq foot ranch on a 3 foot crawlspace with an attached 1 car garage. Of course, I know you make your $ when you buy. I did several reconfigures (take out a wall, move laundry from kitchen to a bedroom closet, move shower and expand it). Thinking I will still make $ (5% appreciation in this town since 2022) so that's a good thing. 

 still we need to have more information like comps.low and comps.high when you did purchase, it really matter what's the diff between your PSF and low comps to the area when you purchase. My expectation when I do rehab is to purchase below low comps and sell at higher than high comps; I sell it always on Feb-April time frame.

Your rehab is generally looks fine except the plumbing and anything more than 6k seems bit high but generally expected. Are you using multiple contractor or the a single person that's managing it all for you ? it makes huge difference when one guy can manage multiple specialist. 

The market of 5% appreciation rate is there regardless.

Trying to list Feb to April is ideal bit not always possible. I once sold a house a week before Christmas setting anew comp..if there's a deal, I take it regardless of when I will list it.

Regarding plumbing cost, I paid another $2500 for fixtures. His was $12,500 labor & materials including water heater. It also included copper water lines, pvc drain and gas piping. The whole plumbing, gas lines, drain and venting had to be replaced. As stated earlier, this home is on a 3 foot crawlspace so they had to do some work underneath. Had 4 guys there. Big project. Leaving your laundry in the kitchen will not sell for top $. Adding a 2nd faucet to the master bath. Plumbers are expensive as they are regulated by the health department. They can mess up a whole neighborhood. Its important not to use a DIY plus i pulled permits so need to update to code..and galvanized plumbing, i dont want anyone drinking lead water and give a good product. When i sell it, i lay out all the pemrits so potential buyers know it was inspected. Not that anyone of you are but i have seen plenty of flippers cut corners and are scum bags. My plumber said he wont buy a house from a flipper cuz he sees the crap they pull off. He said (fwiw) thay im one of the few that is honest. But i get it, flippers are all abiut the $.

I do manage the project myself, fill out the permits, meet the inspectors, manage the subs & generally always pay labor only.

[Ronald Ty]

Quote from @Jaron Walling:

@Ronald Ty If you have drawings that's a level of rehab outside of my wheel house. Unless the market and comps command that level of detail I'd be cutting material costs. Probably can't do much about the labor... other than the carpenter. 

Hi. Those weren't drawings. Just a kitchen layout pretty typical of any cabinet company. Have the rep come out, measure, and use his software. I've always done this. This is the 1st time I have ever done architectural/structural engineer drawings for taking out a wall though. But that was just for the wall & I have to per the village & even if I didn't do permits, I'd still hire an engineer. 

this is only a 1 floor 1600 ranch home. I'm competing with basements & split levels but there is a comp that sold for 450 last year with a 2 car garage. So I'm just matching it with open concept, 2nd faucet etc. :)

[Ronald Ty]

Hvac $6300 (replace ac, install correctly furnace, vent 2 bathroom fans thru attic, add dryer vent thru side of home in attic, insulate all in attic per code)

Wood floors whole house (kitchen and family room & entry way were not wood so will add plywood to level out) sand & stain $6700

Drywall 4k labor, 2k materials (51 sheets) including garage)

Electric $4300 (could be more as not done but spent 2k on the rough)

Permits 1300

power wash siding $250?

cabinets (20 boxes) plus 2 bathroom vanities with 72" island lazy susan, 36 uppers with crown real wood $6500 with delivery into garage, labor $3500 for cabinets/vanities, doors, trim, crown, casing, knobs etc

SS appliances $3700

Quartz to kitchen and vanities $3700

Insulation/firestop foam windows insulation foam, misc stuff to pass code  $300 material $350 labor

tile/backsplash bathroom floors, tub wall, shower 3k labor, 3k material (couod be more, will know later this week)

demo 2k, dumpsters $2500 ($500/dumpster could need 1 more)

Mold most of attic $1k, vapor barrier crawlspace $750?

Doors/closets/louver 3k material

Flooring subfloor repairs/man door install misc $500 material $1250 labor

plumbing $11500 (already explained in detail, bath fixtures (2 toilets, mirrors, disposal, tub and shower heads $2500

Fence backyard, 1 side year and 2 small front areas material 3k, labor $1500 

Replace 8 windows and a slider material labor $1500, material $2500

Replace some aluminim fascia and 8 windows, doors and slider $800 labor material $200

know, closet shelves, door stops, keys $3k material

replace 1 car garage door with new motor 2k (L&M)

marketing (staging, FedEx, postage) $500

trim/crown/casing/1/4 round/decorative crown $2k material

reseal driveway $600

mudjack left side of garage floor and front walkway $2500 (L&M)

Paint (spray garage walls, trim, doors etc prime and final coat, paint 3 exterior doors, epoxy pain garage floot) material $2k? Labor 5k? (Still waiting on quotes as haven't done a rehab in 2 years & prices have gone up with even my normal guys but hey that's inflation and suppl and demand!)

miad/cleaning products/mailbox, address mis $1000

landscape $1k

$2k? demo concrete patio, replace with dirt and seed, $432 concrete dumpster, concrete demo.labor $700, still need to.seed/dirt and pay labor. Plus concrete stoop.at front door.

frame hall master bath & new closet laundry, move man door to back of home and frame existing area, 3 sandwiched LVL wood beams with bolts thru  with 2 4x8 posts at each end, architect - $6200: materials 2k, labor frame & install beam $1250, $1680 architect fee

$113k total

closing costs, property taxes, utilities, etc $30k?

[Ronald Ty]

Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:

Quote from @Ronald Ty:

Quote from @Jaron Walling:

Rehab $110K + PP $____ = ____ 

ARV= $____ ? Comps still looking good?

The markets are strong for quality properties in decent locations. People are buying it's just slower and +/- 5% of asking prices.  

The rehab breakdown seems reasonable to me but you're over paying left and right. My opinion is jaded as I've DIY a bit of our rehabs. How many dumpsters does a 3/2, 1600 sqft house require? That demo charge is nuts. What quality cabinets are you installing? Assuming that includes labor for installation it still feels high $$$. You did great on the interior/exterior painting though. My mom runs a small painting company. Her quote would have been higher. That carpenter was trying to catch you. I would have told him the same thing! Next time ask him if he thinks this project is a charity. 

 You should target selling it for $300 PSF. Dont settle for below 480k. Your purchase price is fine as well. Congrats!

How would I get that price? I only get what the home is worth. And even of s buyer were to pay 480, it would have to appraise. Comps don't support it. I ran overboard on my rehab. It is what it is. And as you know, the longer a home sits, the more buyers wonder what is wrong with the house. I don't want to rent it out. Will just sell it for what it's worth and move on. :]

[Carlos Ptriawan]

Quote from @Ronald Ty:

Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:

Quote from @Ronald Ty:

Quote from @Jaron Walling:

 You should target selling it for $300 PSF. Dont settle for below 480k. Your purchase price is fine as well. Congrats!

How would I get that price? I only get what the home is worth. And even of s buyer were to pay 480, it would have to appraise. Comps don't support it. I ran overboard on my rehab. It is what it is. And as you know, the longer a home sits, the more buyers wonder what is wrong with the house. I don't want to rent it out. Will just sell it for what it's worth and move on. :]

 Hahaha, if I were you I would wait for few years. Your particular market is good.
Or you could sell me for 400k and I would sell it for 600k in few years.

LOL