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All Forum Posts by: Cliff T.

Cliff T. has started 13 posts and replied 41 times.

Post: Is This Method of Creative Financing Legal and/or Ethical?

Cliff T.Posted
  • Realtor
  • Rock Hill, SC
  • Posts 41
  • Votes 19

I didn't know you could not respond/reply to individual comments, so this may be a bit lengthy as I try to thank and reply to each person. Please read the example at the end!

@Greg Scott: That is indeed a very good point. Is there a specific law that now makes it impossible to do with conventional financing, or is it just less commonly done? Thank you!

@Trina S. As a self employed realtor I can still buy properties for myself, rather than through my LLC. I can keep it in my personal name for a while and then sell it to my LLC at a later date, right? Also, I have a great W-2 job which keeps me on good terms with the bank. Investing will hopefully be full-time eventually. I just need to determine if this is a tool I can employ to help make that happen, or not. Thanks! :)

@Lynn McGeein You are absolutely correct and a net listing is against the law in my state (SC). I don't think it would be a net listing, though... I'm not listing anything. I'm the buyer. I think you are also correct that this would be more likely to work on a FSBO, since there is no listing agent to get an extra chunk of the inflated sales price (60k instead of 50k).

I REALLY appreciate your point about agency, too! I had not yet taken that into consideration. I would have to be very upfront with him about that from the very beginning and have him sign a document stating that he understands it before we close. Thank you!

@Vinay H. I guess there are several possibilities with that one. I'm not an expert on this (yet), but maybe it was a 203 k renovation loan? Then again, according to @Andrew Postell, the loan could only be for the appraisal price or the sales price (whichever is LOWER). I think @Tom S. nailed the 2 most likely scenarios, though. 

@Andrew Postell Thanks! I have found out the hard way that the most I can get for an investment property is 85%. If I find a motivated seller who is willing to take a 30% discount on his asking price (and let's assume his asking price is based on an appraisal), then it could still work even with 85% LTV, right? Just not as well as a 90% loan?

I kind of feel like your point is going over my head, sorry if that is the case! Let me ask you this:
What if I employ this method on my next primary residence!? Would that make it a viable option? Thanks!!

My takeaway notes so far are that this is not as easy as it sounds, and perhaps not even possible. Also, not one person has made a case for it being unethical. So if I do get an opportunity to use it on my next primary residence, then it's worth considering. It may also be worth considering if I'm buying an investment property with a significant discount (30% or more). 

For example:

Asking price $60,000

Appraised value $63,000

Motivated Seller agrees to $42,000

Buyer/Agent makes offer of $60,000 with $18,000 commission

85% loan is $51,000 and 15% down is $9,000

So, the buyer/agent fronts $9,000 for the loan, but then walks away with $18,000 in commission that came out of the loan

What do you guys think? Could it work? Would it be breaking any laws or trust?


Yes, No?

I really enjoy and appreciate you all helping me out with this topic!! Thanks a million!!!!

Post: Is This Method of Creative Financing Legal and/or Ethical?

Cliff T.Posted
  • Realtor
  • Rock Hill, SC
  • Posts 41
  • Votes 19

In the very first real estate book I ever read, "From Janitor to Multi-Millionaire" by R. Mike Weese, I learned several methods for buying property with no money down, aka creative financing. 

There is one method in particular that I just assumed was 100% ethical and legal, but my BIC seems unsure about because she has never heard of it or seen it done before. She wants to ask around before letting me do it. This is totally fine, of course, because if it's not ethical then I don't want to do it.

Here's the example from his book, but skip this for a quick summary next:

Let me give you an example of my early days in real estate. In the city of Brea, California, in the early 1970s, I was able to buy three and four bedroom homes for $50,000. In many instances, these homes would actually appraise for as much as $60,000. I remember doing some cold calling, or canvassing, as they call it nowadays, on homes advertised for sale by owner in the local newspaper. I remember finding one, where the seller told me he had a current appraisal of $60,000. He was willing to sell his home for a net of $50,000 to him. If I were to earn a commission, I would have to add it on top of the $50,000 that he had quoted me. In my negotiations with the seller, I confirmed that his only desire was to walk away with $50,000 from the sale. He acknowledged that was true. I then presented him an offer in the amount of $60,000. I told him to not get excited until he read the second page where I discussed the commission. On the second page I had entered the amount of $10,000 as the commission I would receive for selling his property! He then proceeded to tell me that he thought that my commission was extremely high. I told him that I agreed with him, but that was the only way I was interested in purchasing his property, and it really made no difference to him since he would still get the $50,000 he had required. I then went to the lender to ask him for a 90% loan based on the $60,000 sales price. Remember, we had a current appraisal placing the value at $60,000. The lender had no problem with the appraisal and agreed to make me a loan of $54,000. There were minimal closing costs involved in this transaction. I placed $6,000 into escrow, which represented a 10 percent down payment. At the end of closing, the Escrow Company cut me a check for my commission in the amount of $10,000! I had purchased this property for $6,000 out-of-pocket costs, and received $10,000 back at closing. I was then the proud owner of a new property and had $4,000 in my pocket from the commission that I had received! This is one instance where it pays to be a real estate licensee. A real estate licensee has tremendous flexibility in finding properties that he likes and being able to use his commission toward purchasing the property. 

Summary:

Seller has property appraised for $60,000. 

Buyer, who is a real estate licensee, discovers seller just wants $50,000 at the end of the deal. 

Buyer makes offer for $60,000, where $10,000 goes to commission and $50,000 goes to seller (closing costs were minimal).

Buyer gets loan for $54,000 from bank and puts $6,000 (10% of $60,000) into escrow.

At closing, seller gets $50,000 and buyer gets $10,000.

Buyer put down $6,000, but then gets $10,000 out of his own loan via high commission. 

Seller is happy and Buyer walks away with property without spending any money out of pocket AND now has an extra $4,000 cash that he pulled out of the $54,000 loan. 

Is this legal and/or ethical? 

It seems to me that the there are no issues between the buyer and seller, since they both agreed to it. Any ethical dilemma would be between the buyer/agent and the bank.

In the end, it allows me to purchase more property to buy, hold, and rent. This is good for the community and no harm comes to anyone (seller, buyer, or bank). I think the author of the book was probably not entirely up front about the amount of commission he was earning with the bank, and they probably didn't even notice what was going on. If that's the case, is it his job to point every little thing out to the banker? OR is it just his job to submit a loan application and see if it get approves or not?

This strategy was a significant factor when deciding whether or not to get my real estate license. It was also a HUGE factor when picking a company to work for. I finally found one that wouldn't take a percentage of commission on the deals that were for myself. (This method would NOT work if I had to share 20-75% of my commission with my broker! I'd just be giving them free money out of my own loan.) I'm going to feel awfully silly if this turns out to be a bad idea. 

Thanks for reading and helping this newbie out!

If appropriate security measures are not presently in place, it would be very easy for either a BP employee or an outside hacker to obtain access to the data we BP users input into our BP calculators.

For example, one bit of code or one virus could be used to identify and bundle deals we find and input into our BP calculators that meet certain requirements, such as the area and having high cashflow of 30+%. Such info could easily be used or sold. 

Question 1: Does BP specifically state that the data we input into our calculators is our own personal PRIVATE information that they do not give their employees (such as their IT guys) any access to?

Question 2: Does BP take any security measures to make sure that outside parties cannot gain access to the data we input into our BP calculators?

These questions are specific to the data we put into our calculators (addresses, MLS #'s, prices, costs of repair, etc.). This is NOT about our profile information or any other information on BP, just the data we so trustingly plug into our calculators.

If you do not feel as though your information is as safe as it should be, simply do not input the property address or MLS #. Instead, use a reference number in the "Report Title" and store the address and MLS # on something external to BP. This is good for keeping your data unusable for peeking eyes, but it does not print as nicely without the address.

Post: Advanced Mortgage Calculator?

Cliff T.Posted
  • Realtor
  • Rock Hill, SC
  • Posts 41
  • Votes 19

I found a custom document that does it. You simply need to take the amount paid in addition to the minimum payment and put it in the column next to the payment. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qKtDaJ-ejW...

If that link doesn't work, I'll be happy to email it to you. Just PM me.

Post: Advanced Mortgage Calculator?

Cliff T.Posted
  • Realtor
  • Rock Hill, SC
  • Posts 41
  • Votes 19
Thanks, but I don't see a way to input the exact amount paid for each month. Maybe I didn't explain what I need very well... I'd like to find a calculator that allows me to input my 1st, 2nd, 3rd,...last payment, next payment so I can see how much money I've saved by paying more than the minimum each time AND so I can see how much I'll save if my next payment is a whopping amount, such as $10k. I hope that makes more sense now. Thanks!

Post: Use HELOC to paydown mortgage fast

Cliff T.Posted
  • Realtor
  • Rock Hill, SC
  • Posts 41
  • Votes 19

I gotta say, I've been scratching my head trying to figure out what to do with the $10k I HAVE to spend on my HELOC in order to get a deal on closing...

Putting it onto my 1st mortgage seems like a no brainer. 1st mortgage is 2.5% 5/1 ARM. HELOC is 1.99%.

So I'll just put $10k of HELOC towards principal on my 1st mortgage ($220k remaining). This should save me interest... I used this calculator that allows a prepayment option: http://www.hsh.com/mortgage-calculator.html

1) My figures with regular payments (I pay more, but to keep it simple I'll just figure it at minimum payments):

a) Total Interest Paid:            $102,229.33

b) Total of 360 payments:    $344,229.33

c) Payoff date:                        Aug 2046

2) My figures with regular payments PLUS HELOC prepayment of $10k on month #11:

a) Total Interest Paid:           $91,944.58

b) Total of 360 payments:   $333,944.58

c) Payoff date:                        Nov 2044

So it seems like a no brainer... By using $10k of my HELOC to pay off $10k of my mortgage, I'll save pretty big:

102,229.33 - 91,944.58 =   $10,284.75 saved in total INTEREST paid.

344,229.33 - 333,944.58 = $10,284.75 saved in total PAYMENTS paid.

Paid off almost 2 years sooner. All from a one time prepayment of $10k from a HELOC.

Here's the downside: I now would owe $842/mo for 12 months to payoff my HELOC in a year. Interest paid on my HELOC for the next year to payoff the $10k = $104 (not including any fees). That's $842 * 12 = $10,104 I'm paying towards my HELOC each month, instead of my mortgage. BUT, this seems better to me than just slowly putting an extra $842 towards principal each month. The sooner it goes towards principal, the more interest I'll save each time it gets calculated, right?


So to recap: I spend some money getting a HELOC (closing fees) and interest to pay it off ($108). I save myself $10,284.75 in INTEREST, $10,284.75 in total PAYMENTS, and payoff my 1st mortgage 2 years sooner!

Now let me be clear, I'm a total rookie at all of this and am still trying to determine if I'm making any errors here in my logic. If I'm wrong, PLEASE tell me before I follow through on this.

I know it's an old thread, but the issue doesn't seem fully resolved. Everything @David Dachtera has said makes sense to me. Yet he has fewer votes than his counterparts in this thread. Let's get to the bottom of this instead of leaving it unresolved :)

Thanks,

Cliff

Post: Advanced Mortgage Calculator?

Cliff T.Posted
  • Realtor
  • Rock Hill, SC
  • Posts 41
  • Votes 19

Hi BP,

I have just given up on google and am turning to you guys for help.

I would like to know if there is a mortgage calculator out there that allows you to input your past payments and potential future payments?

I want to see how much money I'm really saving on each payment that has more than the minimum balance going towards principle.

If you feel like getting technical, allow me to explain my current situation that gave the desire to find such a calculator:

I'm getting a HELOC on my primary residence. It's 1.99% and has no closing costs*.

* = So long as I use a minimum $10k of the $20k for the entire first year. 

At first, I thought well there goes my free closing costs... Because I won't need to use that much all year. 

BUT THEN I had an idea: What if I just put $10k of my HELOC on my primary mortgage towards principle? My primary mortgage is 2.5% for 5 years, then goes up 1% or so every 2 years. I'm still in year 1.

I'd like to see the actual numbers so I can determine whether or not this would be a wise decision.

Any and all feedback is both welcome and MUCH appreciated!

Sincerely,

Cliff

Post: I'm about to pull the trigger on my first investment property

Cliff T.Posted
  • Realtor
  • Rock Hill, SC
  • Posts 41
  • Votes 19

I get your point! No worries, I'm not waiting around out of indecision... I'm mostly waiting on my financing to get ready. 

HELOC takes 45 days to approve/close... Then applying for new mortgage at multiple places.

I'm also shopping for the best real estate company to hang my license with this and next week. I got my license so I won't have to rely on other agents to find deals. I'll also be able to save 3-6% on each deal I make. I'll have MLS access in a week or so to start the hunt for deal #1.

In the meantime, what better thing to do than continue my education and ask questions on BP? :)

I'm sure you've read some quality books by now, Cody. Any suggestions? 

I see that your first purchase was a MFU. What would you say was the biggest catalyst that took you from your first deal to having over a 1,000 units!?

Very cool company name, btw. Clean looking site too. 

Okay I also purchased on audible and would like to see the bonus material.

I have a question as well, though. I can't read the text (hence audible) and am getting thrown off by a calculation made in Chapter 7 min 33:45(audible), Chapter 5 (hard copy)

2000/300,000 = 1.5% BUT 2000/300,000 really = .0066667

After re-listening to it, I just figured that he meant to say it the other way around: 300000/2000 = 1.5%

It's in reference to the 2% rule if that helps you find it. 

(min 32) He states the formula for the 2% rule as: the ratio between income and purchase price: 

Monthly rental income divided by the purchase price = x

Is the formula just wrong in the book? Is it supposed to be:

Purchase price / Rental Income = x ?

Thanks!!

Post: I'm about to pull the trigger on my first investment property

Cliff T.Posted
  • Realtor
  • Rock Hill, SC
  • Posts 41
  • Votes 19

The only seller financing I've seen so far has been a commercial property... and probably because the seller wants more than any right minded lending institution will finance. I know the seller, and he's got a terrible reputation. 

On another note, has anyone used their local small business development center to help with their real estate business? I'm thinking about checking it out, but am not sure if they consider investors to be small business owners, even though I operate as an LLC/S-corp.