All Forum Posts by: Derreck Wells

Well... how much is your time worth? I'm not making any more money then any other "regular" contractor. It costs more to remove LBP simply because of the containment practices I have to follow. They add about 40-50% to the job total. You would have to follow those same practices, so the only thing you'll be saving is the cost of labor. Is your time worth more than the going construction labor rate? You would be taking on the added expense of classes (RRP and lead abatement), licenses (state delead and contractor), EPA registration, specialized equipment (the shop vac I was required to buy cost over $500), and continuing education and re-certification classes. Your savings would equal the going labor rate. 

Do you currently do all the rehab yourself? If you do, then it might be worth looking into. If you hire out your rehab because your time is worth more, then it wouldn't be worth it.

@Steve Porcello Most of the homes in MA have lead paint. Save my contact info and when you find property you're interested in, PM me the address and I'll check the lead paint status for you in the state database. I can let you know if it's ever been inspected and what to look out for.

MA real estate laws say that you can't rent to a family with kids under 7 unless you have a lead certificate on file with the state and the anti-discrimination laws say you can't not rent to a family because they have a kid under 7 (even if it's because you know there's lead paint), so they basically made it so that any rental with more then 1 bedroom has to be deleaded. However, they also have loan programs and grants for deleading. There's actually a loan program with 0% interest that you don't have to pay until you sell the property, so basically, it won't cost you anything to delead, it comes out of the profit when you sell, so you just roll it into the sale price.

Good luck on where ever you decide to invest. 

Derreck

@Rick Santasiere The house does not become almost unsalable if you have a lead certificate. Quite the opposite, it goes up in value. You do not need a "full remediation" either. Laws differ in every state, but your deleader will know what has to be done to the different components to make them pass the re-inspection. This is why we have to take the continuing education courses and get our licenses renewed, so we stay on top of the changing laws. 

You are absolutely correct in saying that with a house built before 78 if it hasn't been deleaded yet that is a big negotiating tool for the buyer. At least in MA where anything that is greater then a one bedroom will eventually have to be done under the current laws. One bedrooms will probably never have a family with kids living there, unless the couple has a baby when in residence, then you're on the hook if they don't move. As I mentioned above, I have charged $3000-$5000 per unit for different lead abatement jobs here in MA (Count the exterior as a unit). I'd expect it to be similar in CT.

@Anthony Dooley "Are you suggesting that a house cannot be leased or sold without removing LBP?" Yes. It is illegal in MA to rent a dwelling unit to a family with a child under 6 that hasn't been deleaded. To say "It's not that complicated. Paint the house...

Don't get too wrapped up over this and don't pay thousands of dollars for remediation for something you can do with a bucket of paint from Home Depot." is pretty bad advice to give. MA is extremely strict on lead paint, as is MD which was mentioned above. Many other states as well. GA may not have these laws, but I suggest you check before you get jammed up over a bucket of paint.

Shoot, @Anthony Dooley replied while I was writing that and I didn't mention his comment, though I did address it. It is not legal to delead yourself.

Anthony, what you are recommending is illegal in MA and likely in other states as well. You should check your local laws.

Hi all.

I'm going to start off saying I'm not an expert in CT law. I'm licensed in MA, not CT, but I did just read through CT law (CT DPH Lead Site link opens in new window) and it's almost the same as here (please note, I didn't study it, I just skimmed it). I'm going to speak based on MA law and assume it's the same in CT with the one exception I'll mention. Please talk to the DPH in CT to verify and make sure you're not violating any laws.

If you're a MA landlord reading this, you can message me and I can check the database and see if the building you're interested in has already been done. CT doesn't have a statewide database that I could find.

I'll start with the most recent comment first; @Chad Fernendaz In EVERY state it's required to tell the buyer if there's lead paint, that's a Federal law. There is a HUD brochure that you have to hand out, plus usually state papers too.

Next up, @Mike McCarthy It's not "alarmist". Asbestos was the best thing in the world right up until it wasn't. Lead is a serious issue. It causes ADHD, aggression, lower IQ, learning disabilities, and a host of other issues in kids. To fend of the "We grew up with it and we're fine." argument; It is becoming more and more of an issue as the paint reaches the end of it's life span and deteriorates and chalks up or cracks and falls off. The paint was still intact when we were kids. Also, the house itself is requiring more and more repairs to modernize it and get it up to new codes, so more and more of the lead paint is being disturbed then when we were kids. The "leave it" argument just isn't possible anymore. Doors are becoming more and more out of true and rubbing creating dust, windows are sticking and rubbing creating dust, paint is flaking and leaving chips that get stomped into dust by people walking on them. The exterior paint is flaking and falling, getting stomped into dust. Etc. Etc.. This isn't alarmist, it's fact. The lead poisoning rates have skyrocketed in the last 10 years. Lead paint is in almost every home built before 1978, and many built after as builders continued to use the paint stock they had on hand. (One of the advantages of lead paint is it didn't spoil in the can like today's paint does. I know of a guy in 1996 who painted his deck with lead paint  that he didn't know it was lead based, he found it in his basement and it was still good.) It's law (yes, CT too) that if a child shows elevated blood lead levels (BLLs) that the Dr has to report it to the state DPH. The state then steps in and tests the property and forces the issue, you must delead.  

This is the POSSIBLE exception I mentioned above, CT laws says:

"Sec. 19a-111c. Abatement of lead in dwellings. List of encapsulant products. Regulations.

(a) The owner of any dwelling in which the paint, plaster or other material is found to contain toxic levels of lead and in which children under the age of six reside, shall abate, remediate or manage such dangerous materials consistent with regulations adopted pursuant to this section. ..."

So the wording in this law (there may be others, check to be sure) says "is found to contain" "and in which children under 6 reside" then you must delead. In MA, they went a step further and made it law that you can't rent to families with kids under 6 without having the house tested for lead and having a lead certificate on file with the state. This CT law doesn't specifically say you have to delead before you can rent to a family like MA does. Again, it may say that in a different section.

Now the other 2 points you made Mike, encapsulation and abatement both need to be done by a licensed lead contractor. YOU CANNOT DO THIS YOURSELF. If you attempt to delead, you will get flagged for Unauthorized Deleading (UD) and pick up some fines and never be able to get a lead certificate. You can get a Letter of Environmental Protection which basically says that you attempted illegal deleading, got caught, then the state had a licensed person fix it. Contractors will charge you more to delead after you have attempted it yourself as we have to fix whatever you screwed up. It's our responsibility to make the place lead safe, once we take on the project, we have to fix it all. There are specific laws on what components have to be deleaded by which method. For instance, you can only encapsulate certain components and not others. UD also jacks up your insurance and lowers your rent as people won't want to be there, they won't trust you to take care of the house properly. "If you tried to do that illegally, what else was done illegal?" type of attitude. Now, if you were to replace windows during a remodel and they happened to have lead paint on them, that's legal as you were remodeling, not deleading. The law is about the intent. Flat walls are a concern. The paint needs to be intact and kept intact. It doesn't have to be covered or replaced as some other components do because it isn't mouthable, a kid can't get his mouth around it to chew on it. This is what is learned in getting your deleader's license, which is very different then the Federal 8 hour RRP course that every contractor in the country is supposed to take.

On to the original post. Assume $3000-$5000 per unit and count the exterior as a separate unit and use that number in your negotiations. So a 3 family becomes a 4 unit = $12,000-$20,000 to delead. Assume the higher end of that number if the windows are old or painted, they will probably have to be replaced during deleading and that adds up fast. 

If I can answer any more questions, let me know.

Derreck

@Victor Eng, while it would make sense to be able to delead the entire staircase, I ran into the situation where the 1st floor had been deleaded by another company and they did all 3 floors of the staircase. When I was hired in, the inspector I brought suggested I un-delead floors 2 and 3 before he officially inspected or he would have to flag for UD. 

Drew, 

Be careful, if you don't have lead certificates on file with the state, you can't rent to families with kids under 6. If there are kids living in one or more of the units, you have 90 days after purchase to fix the lead issues without being liable for any existing lead poisoning in the kids. If you don't delead within 90 days, you're on the hook if the kids have elevated blood lead levels. You also can't discriminate against families even if it's because you know there's lead. The law says you must delead. 

Cost can be anywhere from $2k per unit to $5k+ per unit. It depends on what's lead. If the windows or doors have lead they need to be replaced, so that would add significantly to the cost. Count the exterior as a "unit", so a 3 family would be a 4 unit to me. If you have one apartment with a kid under 6, you'll need to delead that apt and the common areas that family will use, so the laundry room, common hallways/stairways that they need to walk through(*), and the exterior. You wouldn't need to delead all three apartments, only the one's occupied by kids. The first is always more expensive since the exterior ($2-$5k) and laundry have to be done, but then the others are significantly cheaper. There are loans and grants you can get. There's even a loan that has 0% interest and doesn't need to be paid back until you sell the building, so the cost can come out of the profits at the end.

* Only the common areas that the family will be using can be done. If the family was on the first floor and the deleader went all the way to the third on the stairs just to make them all look the same, the building would be flagged for Unauthorized Deleading (UD) when you had an inspector back to inspect when you were going to delead the second or third floor. We can only delead up to the first landing if we're deleading the first floor apartment. If we turn that corner into the second floor hall, it's illegal.

Shoot me a message if you're not sure if they building has been inspected, I can pull it up in the database for you. I'd just need the address.

Good luck on your new business venture!

Derreck

Lead paint is something you should be concerned about. In MA you can't rent to a family with children under 7 unless you have a lead certificate on file with the state. 

I don't know the laws in CO but if they're similar, you will have to have the unit deleaded, which could be expensive.

I would suggest you find out the laws and use the fact that you will need to delead (regardless of the law, you should do it) to negotiate the purchase price. Find out the average cost of deleading out there and use that # in your negotiations. If it could cost $20,000, knock that off your offer, then negotiate up to you and them splitting the cost if they give you a hard time.

Good Luck.

There's no specific state laws in Idaho yet about renting a home with Lead Paint other then the Federal disclosure laws, however, expect them to come in the future. The CDC has been working to identify high risk areas in Idaho http://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2013/12_0273.htm

In MA it's illegal to rent to a family with a child under 7 unless you have a Lead Certificate on file with the state. There's no telling what level of legislation Idaho will adopt in the future, or when they will adopt it, but it's something to keep in mind when buying property there. 

Good luck in your investing!