Skip to content
×
Pro Members Get
Full Access!
Get off the sidelines and take action in real estate investing with BiggerPockets Pro. Our comprehensive suite of tools and resources minimize mistakes, support informed decisions, and propel you to success.
Advanced networking features
Market and Deal Finder tools
Property analysis calculators
Landlord Command Center
ANNUAL Save 16%
$32.50 /mo
$390 billed annualy
MONTHLY
$39 /mo
billed monthly
7 day free trial. Cancel anytime
×
Try Pro Features for Free
Start your 7 day free trial. Pick markets, find deals, analyze and manage properties.
All Forum Categories
All Forum Categories
Followed Discussions
Followed Categories
Followed People
Followed Locations
Market News & Data
General Info
Real Estate Strategies
Landlording & Rental Properties
Real Estate Professionals
Financial, Tax, & Legal
Real Estate Classifieds
Reviews & Feedback

All Forum Posts by: Frank B.

Frank B. has started 4 posts and replied 117 times.

Post: Am I doing the tax math correctly?

Frank B.Posted
  • Consultant
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 122
  • Votes 34

You will be taxed on your income, not your revenue (rents). Income is the net of your revenues and expenses. 

Your income will differ from your cash flow based on your depreciation and capital expenditures. Cash flow can be higher or lower than income. 

Simplistically, cash flow = income + depreciation - capital expenditures. 

I like to look at my coc net of taxes. Neither way is right or wrong, just need to specify what type of data you are giving. If you are discussing the deal with someone else or sharing your numbers, pre-tax might be more versatile, as everyone's incremental tax rate is different. 

Post: Oklahoma City June Meet Up

Frank B.Posted
  • Consultant
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 122
  • Votes 34

I'm in--see you guys there!

Post: Do you need an LLC? Absolutely. There is No Debate About It.

Frank B.Posted
  • Consultant
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 122
  • Votes 34
Originally posted by @Paul Choate:

I am a lawyer and I recommend LLCs.

Here are the arguments against them as I understand:'

1. They don't work for asset protection-

I met with a home builder yesterday to discuss filing bankruptcy. He has an LLC. He had 7 or 8 lawsuits over the past few years. Here is the mental calculation I have to go through- first, who is being sued? If it is the LLC, I can completely ignore it. That got rid of all of them except one between him and a business partner. They work. They end lawsuits. They are expensive to fight against.

Can they be defeated? Yes. Everything can be done wrong if you try hard enough. Someone's poor management skills are not an argument against them. That is a reason to do a good job, which is a different argument.

2. They are expensive or difficult to manage- 

The OP said it best. If you are not willing to learn how business is done or can't afford it, maybe you should reconsider what you are doing. You should be able to set up your LLC for a few hundred dollars and the yearly fees are less than $100 in every state I know of. ($25 in Oklahoma.) Find out what the actual costs are. You will probably be pleasantly surprised.

3. My attorney said I don't need one-

There are some bad attorneys out there and they give bad advice. Talk to three attorneys who actually litigate civil cases and see what they say. Here is one for free- I am a licensed attorney in the state of Oklahoma. I primarily practice under the federal bankruptcy code. I spend all day dealing with individuals who had financial problems in life. Legal entities should be properly used by anyone operating a business.

4. Person X doesn't use them and he/she is fine-

Yeah for you! Seriously, that means you have personally figured out how to do things right and nothing very bad has ever happened to you. That is awesome for you. That is even statistically correct for the majority of individuals out there. When I was in Law School, my wills and trust professor started our class out by saying she did not have a will. Sounds stupid right? Well here is the deal. Our laws are set up to do what most of us want. In the case of the will, my professor understood that the law would do what she wanted anyway because she was the norm. Most of us don't have life shattering problems in our real estate businesses and if you ignore me, you will probably be fine too. Your individual experiences are one data point. That is a very small data set. The people who had real problems are probably not on a website touting their experiences to the world.

5. I can't get a loan/ buy a house in an LLC-

I have two houses that are not in my LLCs. One is my first home which I have a mortgage on and I turned into a rental. It was how I started out and why I got that loan. House hacking indicates you are finding a loophole in the system to get started. It is not how you should base your business structure. My second one was my first fixer and I was too lazy to get my business structured correctly. It has been a problem ever since. Set up your structure for what you want to be and you will grow into it. Don't waste time and money or become paralyzed by it. It should be a very small part of the process along the way. 

6. I don't need it because I have insurance and I don't do anything wrong-

This is an extension of #4. Be fully insured. Do a great job running your properties. LLC's are not substitutes for these things. They are an additional layer. Every lawsuit involves two people who think they are right and every time one of them is wrong.

Newbies- don't become focused on LLCs or paralyzed into inaction. LLCs are a good idea when you can afford them and are ready. Talk to your attorney and accountant about when that point will be for you. If you are trying to house hack, you probably can't use them. House hacking is using the benefits of being a home owner to start your real estate business. If you are otherwise established in life and have a pool of money to invest, start out right.

There are no absolutes in this discussion.

Great advice, and well said.

Post: New in Oklahoma City, OK

Frank B.Posted
  • Consultant
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 122
  • Votes 34

Welcome!

Post: Oklahoma May Meet up

Frank B.Posted
  • Consultant
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 122
  • Votes 34

@Paul Choate 

Sounds great, Paul--I plan to attend.

Thanks for setting this up!

Post: My First Duplex...How are these numbers

Frank B.Posted
  • Consultant
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 122
  • Votes 34

How are you going to get insurance for $600/yr on a $160k property?

If I am reading your numbers correctly, it shows:

Rent: 1540

Tax: -400

Ins: -50 (questionable)

Maintenance: -166 (does this include CAPEX?)

Debt Service: -829


Add those up and I get $95 / month cash flow.

If you are investing ~$10k, that is a little over 10% cash on cash return.

I would double check your insurance numbers.
What did you assume for CAPEX?

Post: Analyzing my first property and I have a strategy question

Frank B.Posted
  • Consultant
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 122
  • Votes 34
Originally posted by @Jeb Brilliant:

So the first property I'm considering is in a neighborhood that makes approximately $30k/yr income per household and I'm planning on paying $50,500 for it then I'm guessing I'll spend $10k to fix it up with new paint, carpet and maybe new bathroom sinks/cabinets.  I don't particularly want to be in this neighborhood but it's what I can afford right now. 

My question is... Is it ok to be the nicest house looks wise in a lower income neighborhood? One sign to me is that there are no bars on the windows of my potential house or most of the houses around it. 

What do you all think? Thanks for any input. 

 Is this a flip or buy and hold?

Also you said you don't want to be in the neighborhood. Are you sure you want to buy there?

Post: House prices will never outpace inflation over time, its impossible.

Frank B.Posted
  • Consultant
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 122
  • Votes 34

@Ron Thomas @Account Closed 

I think you are both right, and I think you are saying the same thing in 2 different ways.

@Account Closed Commented that on an individual deal, leveraging an asset doesn't change your risk much. That is to say, if I have a $100k asset and the market moves 10%, I have lost the same amount of equity whether the property was financed or whether I own it free and clear.

@Ron Thomas Comments that if you use leverage to buy more assets than you would have bought in cash, that a 10% move in the market now applies to a larger basis.

Sorry if I have misstated your opinions in any way, but I think you are both right.

I'll also throw in my 2 cents about the original premise about housing price vs inflation--I think the general idea is right, but maybe a better comparison would be that housing prices shouldn't outpace growth in the Willing Buying Power of buyers.

I just made up a term so I'll define it:

Willing Buying Power is the product of =    (Wages) * (Portion of Wages People are willing to spend on housing)

So yes, housing price growth could theoretically sustainably outpace inflation a little, but it can only sustainably outpace the wages of people who are buying the houses if those people become willing to spend a larger % of their wages on housing.

Post: Buy and Hold Goals

Frank B.Posted
  • Consultant
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 122
  • Votes 34

Welcome to BP!

Check out this link if you haven't already--it gives some good information for getting started:

http://www.biggerpockets.com/real-estate-investing

Post: Diary of a Small Rental Property with Rehab

Frank B.Posted
  • Consultant
  • Oklahoma City, OK
  • Posts 122
  • Votes 34
Originally posted by @Dawn Anastasi:

Friday 4/3 is the most exciting day -- shopping!  I will be buying the kitchen cabinets, flooring (vinyl and tile), window, doors, paint, counter tops, etc.


 Awesome thread!

Where do you usually do your shopping?