Skip to content
×
Pro Members Get
Full Access!
Get off the sidelines and take action in real estate investing with BiggerPockets Pro. Our comprehensive suite of tools and resources minimize mistakes, support informed decisions, and propel you to success.
Advanced networking features
Market and Deal Finder tools
Property analysis calculators
Landlord Command Center
ANNUAL Save 16%
$32.50 /mo
$390 billed annualy
MONTHLY
$39 /mo
billed monthly
7 day free trial. Cancel anytime
×
Try Pro Features for Free
Start your 7 day free trial. Pick markets, find deals, analyze and manage properties.
All Forum Categories
All Forum Categories
Followed Discussions
Followed Categories
Followed People
Followed Locations
Market News & Data
General Info
Real Estate Strategies
Landlording & Rental Properties
Real Estate Professionals
Financial, Tax, & Legal
Real Estate Classifieds
Reviews & Feedback

All Forum Posts by: Account Closed

Account Closed has started 0 posts and replied 93 times.

Post: Home Ownership Doesn't Build Wealth

Account ClosedPosted
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 96
  • Votes 66
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Mike H.:

I would say for 80% of the people out there, owning a home is a better investment than renting. 

I hear from these great theologians how owning a house is an expense and not an investment. Well what do you think renting is? Thats an expense too. And guess what, in many areas, its actually cheaper to own than it is to rent.

So why in the world would you not want to own? 

Lets say you had 2,000 mo for your residence and investing. And renting a house cost you 1,400/mo. Owning the same house would cost you 1,000/mo - plus you'd get principal paydown, tax writeoffs and appreciation. Plus you'd have an additional 400/mo more to invest in something else.

So why in the world would it make sense to rent there?

Those are actual numbers from one of my typical rentals. PITI is roughly 1,000/mo even though the rents are 1,400/mo. And that PITI is based on roughly 5 to 8k or so out of pocket (hard money lender at 100% purchase and rehab).

Now i understand why they picked the coast for the report. The cost of homes is way out of whack with what most of us in the US are paying and the rents don't come close to what the PITI would be on those homes.

But typically, even those reports tend to be schewed considerably to fit some stupid reporter's claim. i.e. They tell you that homes only went up 3% or 4% a year whereas stocks went up 10%.  The difference there though is, again, when it comes to stocks, you're paying 100% of the price. When it comes to real estate, you may only have 10 to 20% down on it. 

So if you own a 700k house and it goes up 4%, your return is more than 4% there because your down payment was 70k or 140k or something.  140k to return 28k is not a 3% return, its 20%. 

If you really wanted to do a report, go look at what the net worth is of people who rented their entire lives and then compare that to the people that owned their own homes. I would say that if you compared people in same areas with same jobs, the people that owned their own homes ended up with a higher net worth than those that rented their entire lives.

So where is that study? And why can't we see the numbers on the reality of what some of these silly theologians keep professing would be better? Simple. Because its 99.9% of the time going to come out that owners ended up with more net worth.  

Again, certain areas, like the coast that might make some sense. Houses that cost 4k a month for PITI but could rent for 2,500, then I'd suggest maybe that works.

But again, try telling that to anyone that bought on the coast in the 80s or 90's and saw their homes go from 200k to 800k in value and their houses are now paid off.  They're sitting on 800k nest egg. What do you think the people that rented all those years are sitting on? Their bottoms would be my guess.....

So no, I don't think you can ever convince me that it makes more sense to rent than to buy. Not from a financial standpoint anyway. 

The one thing it does allow you to be is mobile. So if you're an individual that likes to move a lot, then I'd say it makes more sense to rent. Other than that, the numbers don't add up if you add them up correctly and don't twist the numbers to suit you (i.e. 3% gain in appreciation is not 3% return).

I did look for the source study to see the specific examples and wasn't able to find it. Like you I was interested in seeing the actual numbers, because we all know numbers can be twisted. Trust me, I am never blindly in support of any academic study. I still think there is an argument that in certain markets home ownership isn't as great as people think it is. I know many people who have lost money selling their homes. Of course it depends on when you buy versus when you sell and where you are located. This study was comparing returns to the stock market, which performed very well from 2010 to 2016. It was also in large markets, where I am sure the price swings are much greater.

I agree if you plan to sit in your home for 20 or 30 years, then buying makes sense. I will also argue that times have changed. Millennials hop jobs and move around the country. If you are staying in a home 2-3 years, then buying can be very dangerous. Selling costs alone can suck up a couple years worth of appreciation. 

Another consideration is that housing value charts show average home values increasing, but part of that increase is larger size and inflation. When you level set the numbers and subtract inflation, many markets see low appreciation. Yet, during that time the owner had to do repairs and maintenance to keep the property at that value. 

I personally own a home. I could rent it for less than what my payment would be, if I had a payment. I could invest all the money I have tied up in this house and get a better return. I am not planning to do that. I like having control of my home and the security of my equity. It is less a mathematical decision and more emotional for me.

Interesting point you bring up about appreciation versus return. I agree that needs to be considered. But using a 30 year example, it may not be as great as you think. Lets say you put $10K down payment on a $70K house back in 1987 with a 30 year mortgage. Today that house is worth $190K (using my parents home as an example). If you put $10K in the S&P 500 back in 1987, it would be worth well over $200K today. Over those 30 years, you replaced the roof, furnace, water heater twice, remodeled, new carpet, etc. You probably end up putting $25K into the home over that time. When you go to sell the house, selling fees take over 7% off the top. Of course during that time, your mortgage payment was steady, while your rents increased. Still if we go back in time, rates were over 9% in 1987 and your payment would have been over $700 per month. You could have rented a nice place for $700 back in 1987, or more likely paid less and reinvested even more money in the market. My point is when you really dig into the numbers, it is not a slam dunk that owning was better than renting.

Just to be clear, I am not trying to convince you either way. I think it is interesting to analyze and I could argue either side pretty effectively. I appreciate your well thought out response. 

 Did you know that when you have been in a home for 30 years and the mortgage is paid off, you still need a place to live? ;-) Just because a house goes up in value & the mortgage gets paid off, doesn't mean you will then have that equity as a liquid asset. There are plenty of people who won't move "because this is the neighborhood they raised the  family in" and become asset rich and cash poor. When you reach my age (hmm, I actually remember Kennedy getting shot, I was young but I remember) and at this stage I don't care how much "equity" I have in my properties, (which is substantial) I am more about cash flow. I can travel because I have cash flow. Let that sink in.

Post: Refinance on equity with foreclosure?

Account ClosedPosted
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 96
  • Votes 66

@John Kaspar Oops, sorry. I thought you were looking for guidance on how to be successful in real estate so you could do anything you want in life. No problem. I wish you well.

Post: Refinance on equity with foreclosure?

Account ClosedPosted
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 96
  • Votes 66

@John Kaspar Thanks for your service. I am assuming that as military, you were freely moved around the country, at the whim of those in command and more likely around the world. Your current issue is location.

You need to be where the numbers work. Get a few properties under you belt, cash flowing and then you can move where ever you want to settle down.

Your scenarios would get you at least 4 houses maybe 6 if you play it right in places like Indiana, Ohio, and so on. Each house would cash flow about $400 to $500 a month and over time they would be paid off. Why are you beating your head against the high costs and high taxes of MA when there are other and better options where the numbers actually work? When they scaled the cliffs on D Day, it was because they had to, not because they wanted to.  Think smart, think strategically.

Post: Home Ownership Doesn't Build Wealth

Account ClosedPosted
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 96
  • Votes 66
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

A new study that was a collaboration of three universities concluded that in the nations 24 largest markets, only 4 showed median price increases between 2010 and 2016. (Three of four were in Northern California and the fourth was Miami). The study concluded that in most markets, renting and investing the money-saved would get a bigger return that buying a home.

This is an interesting study because it challenges the notion that "a home is your best investment". It also indicates there are very few markets where "appreciation only" strategies work. Here is a summary of the study from CNBC:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/16/homeownership-does...

I originally saw this study reported on Nightly Business Report, where they also made reference to multi-family housing starts being up 37% in October from September. They analyzed this as a continuing trend away from ownership towards renting. Here is a report talking about October building starts and permits:

http://usblogs.pwc.com/industrialinsights/2017/11/...

 The studies I have seen conclude the same thing, even with the mortgage deduction calculated in. 

What studies like that fail to realize is:

1) While true when investing for the long term, IF people are consistent about adding to their investing. However, most people are not disciplined enough to sufficiently add to their 401k. Most 401k's are reaching retirement with $75,000 in them - a far cry from the $1,000,000 needed for a secure retirement. The creator of the 401k recently said it was a big mistake to create the 401k and he wishes he hadn't done so.

2) I can buy a house with less that 20% down but then I have roofs, AC Units, tenants, toilets etc. But I have to pay 100% for a stock purchase. So, that ends up being a personal choice.

3) The Stock Market has "flash crashes" where large hedge funds transact a sell order in split seconds, long before you even hear that you should sell. You get to sell long after the stock has dropped. Yes, the market will "correct" again at some point. It is common to lose 35% to 50% of your 401k in a matter of weeks. "Those who fail to read history are doomed to repeat it."

4) 401ks have hidden fees that keep the custodians happy, and you not so happy.

5) Most people don't think far enough into the future to be concerned about whether property or stocks (mutual funds, 401k, etc) are a better choice. For those of us who care, the safety side of investing is overwhelmingly in favor of real estate. For a whole lot of reasons not posted here. Sure, there will be those who post that Stocks are a better & safer choice, but respectfully, they're nuts. ;-)

Post: Real Estate forms please help?

Account ClosedPosted
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 96
  • Votes 66
Originally posted by @Bruce M.:

What happened to the real estate forms page on Bigger pockets? Do we need to pay now or is there some other page I am missing...thanks in advance and please point me in the right direction...I'm only looking for a basic "offer to Purchase" form...a simple one page form would do

Bruce

 A "simple one page form" will get you sued. Is that what you want? Contracts are state specific.

Post: How to start an real estate investment business?

Account ClosedPosted
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 96
  • Votes 66
Originally posted by @Xavier Felix:

How can I start a real estate investing business? should i start an LLC and how can I obtain business credit?

I have a good personal credit rating but low to no money to invest in a home so what are my options?

Forget the LLC until you have a reason to have one. Do a search for Subject To, Wraps, Lease Options, Owner Financing, Land Contract. You don't actually need a bank.

Post: Raising Private Money

Account ClosedPosted
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 96
  • Votes 66
Originally posted by @Tony Johnson:

Hello BP, 

Can anyone give me some tips or something to read on how to "legally" raise private money outside of friends and family

Sure, join a civic minded group like the Kiwanas, Church, Lions Chamber of Commerce, meet some people and when they ask you what you do, tell them. Contact old high school & college friends and have coffee & tell them what you are excited to have started doing. 

Post: 1st Time Buyer Questions

Account ClosedPosted
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 96
  • Votes 66
Originally posted by @Princeton Brooks:

Is it recommended to pay off all debt before purchasing or investing in real estate for the first time? 

 Nope.

Post: I want a real "team"

Account ClosedPosted
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 96
  • Votes 66
Originally posted by @Dustin Frank:

Question for Real Estate industry peeps: Do any of you work with a team? I know there are several real estate "teams" out there but it still seems like everyone has their own individual job within that team. Do any of you currently work or have past experience working in a team environment where employees meet in the morning, come up with a game plan, and execute it well a well oiled machine on a daily basis? I would love to hear any thoughts, comments, or past experiences you may have relating to this.

Nope, ain't gonna happen. You want to go to work with a property management company or a property development company. Property investing is totally different.

Post: How is the situation in Chicago?

Account ClosedPosted
  • Phoenix, AZ
  • Posts 96
  • Votes 66
Originally posted by @Will Rodriguez:

Hello,

I'm from NYC and looking to make our first purchase of a multi-family in Chicago. I've been coming up with a list of close to a hundred multi family properties which i'll dive deeper into. This is for a buy and long term hold. Focused more on cash flow than appreciation. I'm a little concerned because the numbers for these multi families look a little too good. I know there is a population decline but job growth continues in the right trajectory, and we all know the story with the crime. What's currently scaring investors the most in Chicago? Also, how big of a deal is the whole "split block construction" issue i've been hearing about?


Thanks!

 Wow! After reading of the investing insights on Chicago I realize how fortunate I am to invest in Phoenix. It's the total opposite. Crime is nominal, taxes are low, evictions are quick, there is "in flux" growth of jobs, it's sunny ;-) in the winter too, numbers are good, investments pay off. Why Chicago Will? You gotta death wish with your investments?