Question about security deposit and picky tenants
Hi All!
Long time lurker, first time poster as I unfortunately am dealing with a bit of a ridiculous tenant that just moved out and have a couple questions about security deposits in Madison, WI as it seems like tenants have a lot of rights to getting their deposit back and these guys are trying to take advantage. When I did a walk through with them I called out a few things I would need to replaced (door handles) because they broke one and lost the keys to the other. The lady followed up in an email "approving" that it was ok for ME to deduct from their deposit, and wants to confirm that they will get the rest of their deposit back.
Upon flipping the unit I noticed quite a few other jacked up things. Crayon all over the stairwell because they had a kid that was just a reckless. A hand print of paint on the screen door, and a couple other things.
One question I had is that I noticed a ~2ft burn mark in the carpet, maybe it's not a burn mark but the carpet is certainly jacked up and feels like it was melted when stepping on it. I'm kind of paranoid to just say 100 bucks to fix as I'd imagine they will flip out saying I never said anything during the walk through; however, there is nothing in their check-in sheet calling this out and I know for a fact it wasn't there prior.
So what could I charge for something like this? Looking at averages online for replacing 2 sq. ft of carpet ranged from like 70-200 bucks. How much proof do I need, or will tenants services come knocking on my door?
I'm not looking to be unscrupulous, I just want to make sure the repair is covered because this is on them. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Heath
Its hard to replace a 2 foot square. After time the full room will need replaced and I would not give them a penny more than replacing that full room of carpet. Carpet prices are about $15 to $30 per yard minimum!
Door Knob is at least $25 and $25 to fix.
Painting (Crayons) is not common wear and tear so another $35-$50 on that.
Their are no Tenant Services that will go after you for those cost!
Unless your area has that "Tenant Services" that service would probably agree that this cost are pretty fair!
good luck
Dave
When the tenants sign the lease I give them 3-4 page document cost for repairs. This avoids a lot of arguing what the cost is. The carpet is a different matter. You have to look at how the carpet is and what depreciation is or provide a cost of the repair. You can always get an estimate, but finding a small piece to match will be a challenge. You must be able to take a piece from a client to patch it. I think $100 is more than fair. Crayons on the wall are above beyond normal wear and tear. Door handle cost plus labor. $75 is reasonable. As a side note, I never walk with the tenants. It just opens the door for arguments. I had a tenant In Wisconsin file a complaint against me for refusing to conduct a walk through with them. Attorney wrote a response never heard any more.
@Heath Lehey
You don’t commit to a damage deposit refund until you are ready to return whatever is left. Document with photos and receipts. Send them copies of photos and receipts of money spent within the timeframe. 30 days? Tenants don’t get to “approve” an expense. The expense is the expense, and you send them back what is left. If they don’t like it, they can file through the court.
@Heath Lehey
Again, there isn’t a magic number for a door knob or for a repair. You charge them for actual money spent. If you need to replace carpet, you’ll need to account for depreciation. You cannot charge full price for replacing 10 year old carpeting. Fox what you need to, and charge them for actually dollars spent.
Thanks for the replies! Yep my plan was to bill the for the new door handles I had to buy and the installation of it. In our lease we state that any work to fix up the place is 50/hr. I really just wasn't sure about the carpet, and @Anthony Wick makes a good point about the carpet being older. I think it's like 5 years old and she was complaining about it when they moved in because they didn't like the color. That's why I am a little worried because I can imagine her coming back saying the carpet was trash to begin with even though it's just fine.
When it comes to providing detail on what I did around the unit, how much detail do I have to provide. Would something like 'additional cleaning of oven, screen door, yard, etc be sufficient or do I need to really detail it all out exactly?
Thanks again for the help, just paranoid in this crazy world of litigation.
Originally posted by @Heath Lehey:Thanks for the replies! Yep my plan was to bill the for the new door handles I had to buy and the installation of it. In our lease we state that any work to fix up the place is 50/hr. I really just wasn't sure about the carpet, and @Anthony Wick makes a good point about the carpet being older. I think it's like 5 years old and she was complaining about it when they moved in because they didn't like the color. That's why I am a little worried because I can imagine her coming back saying the carpet was trash to begin with even though it's just fine.
When it comes to providing detail on what I did around the unit, how much detail do I have to provide. Would something like 'additional cleaning of oven, screen door, yard, etc be sufficient or do I need to really detail it all out exactly?
Thanks again for the help, just paranoid in this crazy world of litigation.
Heath - you can be pennywise but pound foolish in this situation.
Your carpet was installed before this tenant moved in so its a depreciated value. I'd find out what it would be to get new carpet installed and charge her for the clear damage. Sadly with carpets they are cheap flooring, usually get abused. You'll have to eat something there.
Other stuff -- make two lists for your handyman. One is stuff that's wear and tear and well-documented with price. Then, a separate list to cover tenant damage. Tell him to get to work, take copious pictures (hopefully you have pre-rental images as well AND walkthrough comments) and then take it out of the security deposit. My guess is it won't be much.
People have a false sense of litigation. Litigation in my uneducated experience exists to make people whole in cases where they are not. IF someone wants to spend time taking you to small claims court over a $300 security deposit damage cost, let them. You'll have your ducks in a row and a quick case. Worse case? Judge says meh, not enough here, give 'em $300. But the people who threaten to sue typically don't because they A) don't have the means and B) just use it as a threat.
Treat people equitably and fairly (I always ask myself with most decisions -- if someone sent this e-mail, made this phone call, took this action with ME, how would I approach it?) and you'll be fine. If they caused actual damage and you can prove it, charge them, get it fixed, and get a better tenant in.
Two tips for you
1.Carpet is generally depreciated over 10 years. You should determine how much of that 10 years this tenant deprived you of and charge. Here's some more info. https://rpoaonline.org/kb/charge-damaged-carpet/
2. My state ( Maryland ) like yours requires you to offer the old tenant to be there upon inspection. However this is just an inspection, not an explanation of expected charges. I explain that I won't be able to determine what will be charged until I compare this inspection to the old paperwork. Normally when I explain this before hand the tenant doesn't bother showing up and everything goes smoother. This requires good documentation.
#3 Managing Your Property Contributor
Originally posted by @Heath Lehey:Thanks for the replies! Yep my plan was to bill the for the new door handles I had to buy and the installation of it. In our lease we state that any work to fix up the place is 50/hr. I really just wasn't sure about the carpet, and @Anthony Wick makes a good point about the carpet being older. I think it's like 5 years old and she was complaining about it when they moved in because they didn't like the color. That's why I am a little worried because I can imagine her coming back saying the carpet was trash to begin with even though it's just fine.
When it comes to providing detail on what I did around the unit, how much detail do I have to provide. Would something like 'additional cleaning of oven, screen door, yard, etc be sufficient or do I need to really detail it all out exactly?
Thanks again for the help, just paranoid in this crazy world of litigation.
The fact that you had the $50/hr clause is good. Remember that should include time spent going to buy items, not just installing them. If the damage to the floor isn't that noticeable, do you need to replace it? You could just clean it and leave it, replacing it after the next tenant.
For details, just list the items and a cost excluding labour. Put the labour cost as a single line item. If she says anything, just tell her the walk through you did with her was a courtesy and you did a more thorough one afterwards. Also check local laws to see how long you have before returning the balance of the deposit.
Just an FYI- we do not do our final walkthroughs with tenants. WE take photos of anything not clean or damaged and then come back to theoffice to see who is responsible based on the move-in photos. This is a very important process.
If you can move a piece of carpet from a closet to fix that area, get the repair done and charge the tenant accordingly. Hopefully the carpet isn't old, if it is, you probably need to just replace on your own dime.
Originally posted by @Theresa Harris:Originally posted by @Heath Lehey:Thanks for the replies! Yep my plan was to bill the for the new door handles I had to buy and the installation of it. In our lease we state that any work to fix up the place is 50/hr. I really just wasn't sure about the carpet, and @Anthony Wick makes a good point about the carpet being older. I think it's like 5 years old and she was complaining about it when they moved in because they didn't like the color. That's why I am a little worried because I can imagine her coming back saying the carpet was trash to begin with even though it's just fine.
When it comes to providing detail on what I did around the unit, how much detail do I have to provide. Would something like 'additional cleaning of oven, screen door, yard, etc be sufficient or do I need to really detail it all out exactly?
Thanks again for the help, just paranoid in this crazy world of litigation.
The fact that you had the $50/hr clause is good. Remember that should include time spent going to buy items, not just installing them. If the damage to the floor isn't that noticeable, do you need to replace it? You could just clean it and leave it, replacing it after the next tenant.
For details, just list the items and a cost excluding labour. Put the labour cost as a single line item. If she says anything, just tell her the walk through you did with her was a courtesy and you did a more thorough one afterwards. Also check local laws to see how long you have before returning the balance of the deposit.
Should I also detail out each thing I cleaned to justify how I got the few hours worth of additional cleaning that I did or is that not necessary?
#3 Managing Your Property Contributor
Originally posted by @Heath Lehey:Originally posted by @Theresa Harris:Originally posted by @Heath Lehey:Thanks for the replies! Yep my plan was to bill the for the new door handles I had to buy and the installation of it. In our lease we state that any work to fix up the place is 50/hr. I really just wasn't sure about the carpet, and @Anthony Wick makes a good point about the carpet being older. I think it's like 5 years old and she was complaining about it when they moved in because they didn't like the color. That's why I am a little worried because I can imagine her coming back saying the carpet was trash to begin with even though it's just fine.
When it comes to providing detail on what I did around the unit, how much detail do I have to provide. Would something like 'additional cleaning of oven, screen door, yard, etc be sufficient or do I need to really detail it all out exactly?
Thanks again for the help, just paranoid in this crazy world of litigation.
The fact that you had the $50/hr clause is good. Remember that should include time spent going to buy items, not just installing them. If the damage to the floor isn't that noticeable, do you need to replace it? You could just clean it and leave it, replacing it after the next tenant.
For details, just list the items and a cost excluding labour. Put the labour cost as a single line item. If she says anything, just tell her the walk through you did with her was a courtesy and you did a more thorough one afterwards. Also check local laws to see how long you have before returning the balance of the deposit.
Should I also detail out each thing I cleaned to justify how I got the few hours worth of additional cleaning that I did or is that not necessary?
The more you put, the more they are likely to nit pick. You can put down big items or be general (steam cleaned carpets in all rooms, cleaned oven), but listing every little item is overkill. Take photos of before and after.
@Heath Lehey. We are not allowed, per state law, to just charge for our time. Only money actually spent. If I spend several hours cleaning, painting, doing whatever, that's just the cost of doing business. No charge to tenant.
#4 General Landlording & Rental Properties Contributor
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#4 General Landlording & Rental Properties Contributor
- Rental Property Investor
- Los Angeles, CA
Originally posted by @Anthony Wick:We are not allowed, per state law, to just charge for our time. Only money actually spent. If I spend several hours cleaning, painting, doing whatever, that's just the cost of doing business. No charge to tenant.
A really stupid law that seems to be very common. I can't bill the tenant $50 for my time + materials, but I can hire a professional for $175 + material (including their mark-up) and the tenant will have to pay that. Yet another example of our politicians "protecting" the tenants.
@Greg M.. That's a crazy thing, right? We are constantly balancing what to do. For the last turnover, I got frustrated and wanted to just charge the tenants for a professional cleaning. But my partner said she could easily clean the place while I was doing some painting. We really try to be very nice and reasonable to tenants that have paid their rent for years, even if they have not done a great job of cleaning upon move out. We consider a day of work to turn the unit to be the cost of doing business. Obviously we didn't try and charge them for paint and supplies, but when I did hours and hours of work for cat odor mitigation, I was not very pleased to charge them $0.00 for my work (of note: I ended up having to hire an odor mitigation company to fumigate the entire duplex). (P.S.S.: No, Mr. Tenant, your cat urinating all over the basement and the basement drywall does not mean the smell is only contained to the one room that your cat decided to mark).