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All Forum Posts by: Loren Thomas

Loren Thomas has started 35 posts and replied 238 times.

Post: Ask me your electrical questions!

Loren ThomasPosted
  • Electrician
  • Bothell, Wa
  • Posts 241
  • Votes 96
Originally posted by @Justin R.:

Loren Thomas This is probably a Top10 thread on BP for helpfulness. I'm amazed. You rock!

This is rudely long - my apologies.

I've got a fourplex, recently purchased, that's undergoing a big ol rehab. One building was built early 40's, but has modern copper wire throughout. There's a 100A and a 200A panel, both I assume upgraded in the 70's since a second story was put on then.

Second building was built in the 70's and has a 100A panel. That building is going from a 1bed to a 3bed.

Each unit has a single breaker shutoff where the overhead service comes in, then a single sub panel inside the unit with breakers.

All sounds good so far.

We are adding a third unit to the original building, with permits. That means a new electric service. Couple questions:

1. If I'm going to upgrade the second building to a 200A service, do I have to pull a new service line to that building along with new sub panel and interior wiring?

2. Is it feasible to re-use the existing 100A service (the drop, the main shutoff) for the new unit? The new unit is a studio, so it doesn't need much.

I'm asking because the total electric is $26k for the project, mostly because there's 3 panel upgrades proposed. Is it the materials or the labor predominantly driving the cost? And, how should one approach an electrician when deciding whether new panels are necessary or whether they should just do their best with what's there?

And, wanna come to Southern California for 2 weeks and do this job? ;)

 1.  If you are upgrading from 100A and moving up to 200A, then yes you'll need new wiring that feeds it (and everything that goes along with doing that), unless it's currently over sized. Any branch circuits or feeders that come from the new 200A that were in the 100A should be compatible with the new equipment if planned properly.

2. 100A is probably enough for a small small space. If it's current code compliant then it may be allowable.

In my experience, labor and material were about 50/50. However, I realize now that I wasn't charging enough when I was in business.

I'd love to come to Cali, but I am so much happier not being a self-employed electrician. I Like putting in my time at work and being able to go home and shut my work switch off and be with my family.

Originally posted by @Robert Perry.:

I have a bathroom that has a light and fan on separate switches. I would like to combine them so the fan will automatically go on when the light it switched on. Is this as easy as just running the wires to the same switch? Would I need to have a certain switch to begin with in order for this to work? Any input would be helpful! Thanks!!

Yep, you have it correct. Might be easier to wire nut both the light and fan wires, and then connect them to the switch with a jumper, or pigtail.

Originally posted by @sylvia b. :

1. Hmm... so I might still get a jolt from a wire that tests as dead? Unsettling, to say the least.

2. Only two screws have wires connected. The two shown in photo #2. The top is white, the bottom black. What do you mean by "buried box"? A hidden junction box?

3. Okay . . . That leads to another question. Different switch, also a 3 way with only 2 wires connected. The cable in the switch box is the old cloth-wrapped 2 strand no ground. The wires in the ceiling box that the switch controls are modern 12/2 w/ground Romex. When the switch is on, the white wire in the ceiling box is hot, not the black. I was assuming they accidentally reversed them in a connection somewhere. Am I making a bad assumption?

1. Yep

2. Yep

3. Hard to say, there's too many variables and unknowns. 

Post: 12v lighting wiring and NEC

Loren ThomasPosted
  • Electrician
  • Bothell, Wa
  • Posts 241
  • Votes 96

I don't believe there is anything in the NEC regarding what you are talking about. If there is, it's a very recent addition. If there's not, I know the committee wants to put something in it so that it's safely regulated.

I'd use low voltage landscape wire, it's purpose is for lighting. It's very durable, but I don't know its price point compared to other options. 

As far as I know, low voltage lighting ran how you are doing it is a big gray area as far as the electrical industry is concerned. Im certainly not saying you're doing anything wrong, but I would err on the side of caution with the gray area in mind.

Post: Ask me your electrical questions!

Loren ThomasPosted
  • Electrician
  • Bothell, Wa
  • Posts 241
  • Votes 96

 1. Wouldn't I get rather random results if it was going haywire? I tested it multiple times - probably at least 20 - and got the same results every single time.

2. Yes, I noticed that, and wondered. I'd like to come back to that one.

3. If the neutral was switched, why would the wires ever test hot?

Now back to #2. Why would anyone use a 3 way switch when it wasn't needed? If I replace the switch, can I just use a regular switch or do I need to use a 3 way? Can you refer me to a website or other resource where I can learn more about those different ways of wiring and the situations that would call for that?

I appreciate the help!

 1. I'd put my money on you getting the same but incorrect reading every time.

2. This is hard to answer without know why there is a 3-way there in the first place. Maybe a buried box somewhere? Looks like all 3 screws have wires landed. Not sure of a good place for info, a Google search I'm sure would do well.

3. Neutral wires in many cases have current running through them just like hot wires. Without a ground to regulate off of, testing becomes a crap shoot. More advanced techniques of troubleshooting become required.

You can try using the metal box for the ground. That device is from a time where it was common place to ground the box, but not the device. However, it looks to be added in that location, perhaps a clue to why it's a 3-way. Hard to say when it was added.

Post: Ask me your electrical questions!

Loren ThomasPosted
  • Electrician
  • Bothell, Wa
  • Posts 241
  • Votes 96

There's a lot of factors in play here. The biggest is that there appears to be no ground, this alone will make lead testers go haywire. Second it's a 3 way switch, which can be wired in a lot of different ways depending on the situation and use. Last, sometimes older systems switch the neutrals instead of hot wires.

PS The flathead screws pictured are satan. Especially the ones that hold the device in place, it makes me cringe thinking of the time I've spent trying to back them out after years of paint or rust or dirt or whatever. Or coming across a stripped one. Gah. That switch is many years old, but a testament to a higher quality product than that of its modern equivalent.

Post: Ask me your electrical questions!

Loren ThomasPosted
  • Electrician
  • Bothell, Wa
  • Posts 241
  • Votes 96

Hi Nate. In my area even 2k is pretty low. AFCI breakers that are required in most places now are $45 each... that's adds up really fast. Plus permit costs, plus travel time, plus dealing with the utility company, and lastly, hazard pay.

Post: Ask me your electrical questions!

Loren ThomasPosted
  • Electrician
  • Bothell, Wa
  • Posts 241
  • Votes 96

If everything works fine when it's plugged into another GFI, then yes that's probably what I would do first. It's possible there's a loose connection, maybe take it out of the box and make sure all wire nuts are tight and all wires are landed on screws tightly.

Post: Ask me your electrical questions!

Loren ThomasPosted
  • Electrician
  • Bothell, Wa
  • Posts 241
  • Votes 96

Originally posted by @Roger Rustad:

Loren Thomas , is there a video series that I can just watch and after like 100 hours I gave most of my bases covered in terms of foundational electrical knowledge?

I don't think 100 hours is enough to know what needs to be known. Rather than tackle the whole trade at once, why not educate yourself as individual issues come up?

Originally posted by @Brant Eames:

Hey. New guy here. I've got a question about a specific gfci reacting with a specific appliance in my kitchen. I have a Keurig coffee maker. Any time I try to plug it into one particular gfci it pops the gfci. If I plug a different appliance, say a toaster, into the same gfci outlet, it works fine. So, I figured it was a problem with the coffee maker.

However, when I plug the Keurig into a different gfci plug on the other side of the kitchen, it does not trip that one. I should mention that I had the Keurig plugged into the original gfci for about 5 months without issue. It just started tripping it about three days ago. Suggestions?

Could be a faulty GFI if you are plugging it into a different GFI and it works fine. Does it happen intermittently or whenever you try and use it? Typically, a separate GFI in a kitchen implies a different circuit. It's possible that the Keurig, in addition to something else utilizing that circuit at the same time, is too much for the circuit to handle.... at least the GFI thinks so.

Post: Ask me your electrical questions!

Loren ThomasPosted
  • Electrician
  • Bothell, Wa
  • Posts 241
  • Votes 96

Hmmm. There's the code book, but that covers far more than you'd need, and it's a language itself. Home Depot's book is pretty good, I'd probably say that one. They have an all in one book that is awesome as well.

Post: Ask me your electrical questions!

Loren ThomasPosted
  • Electrician
  • Bothell, Wa
  • Posts 241
  • Votes 96

Yes, sorry, that what I meant. 

Post: Ask me your electrical questions!

Loren ThomasPosted
  • Electrician
  • Bothell, Wa
  • Posts 241
  • Votes 96

Federal Pacific is surpassed in unsafe only by Zinsco. I would look into getting the outlets rewired, if the kitchen and bathrooms are done, it shouldn't be a huge expense. Alternatively, you can install GFCIs in all the 2 prong outlet locations, but that cost adds up really fast and some jurisdictions do not consider that a solution. Another question to ask is how much abuse have those outlets have taken, and how much more can they take.

Whatever you do, don't install 3 prong outlets in place of the 2 prong with new wiring.