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All Forum Posts by: J. Martin

J. Martin has started 176 posts and replied 3654 times.

Post: SF Bay Area Economic & RE Update (Ongoing)

J. Martin
#1 Real Estate Events & Meetups Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Oakland, CA
  • Posts 3,832
  • Votes 2,925
Originally posted by @Lena Wang:
Originally posted by @J. Martin:
Originally posted by @J. Martin:

@Account Closed, @Andrey Y, Thank you for calling me out. 
I said this about a year ago. My perspective is very similar. (And fortunately, the data is consistent with what I was talking about a year ago I think ;)

**TRENDS ARE CHANGING**

As of May 2016 in my graph above, the CA unemployment rate stood at 5.2% and dropping. I specifically noted that the unemployment rate tended to revert before the last 3 recessions, not long after the unemployment rate hit or went below 5.0%. 

So where are we at today? 

Aug 2017: 5.1% unemployment rate in CA

15 months after the May 2016 data, we're almost back where we were then. How? After reaching a low of 4.7% - the same as the low of 4.7% last seen in the Dotcom Dec of 2000 - the unemployment rate (gasp!) went up again. This is consistent with my expectation from a year ago. If you look back above at the May 2016 data when I first said this, you don't see any upward spike. It was all pretty much downhill smooth sailing. I based my premise of reversion on history - not any rough patches then. Clearly something has changed in the trend since then. 

As Minh likes to say, history doesn't always repeat itself. But it rhymes. (And damn, sometimes it almost seems to sort of repeat itself too..)

Is there some sort of pattern here? Was I expecting that a year ago?  
Well, maybe I got lucky, but I think yes. I didn't get out a divining rod orouija board or anything. Just looked at it from a third grader point of view ;) There's some point it doesn't cross for long. Then you get one of those vertical grey lines a bit later.. 

I'm not necessarily saying that this first reversion to an increase in the CA unemployment rate in about 7 years (look at the 7yr steady decline) is going to cause a recession tomorrow. You can see that it usually bounces around or stays near the bottom for a while, then starts increasing consistently, resulting in a recession - then we "find out" (officially) we are/were in a recession 9-15 months later. There is some minor improvement in the labor force participation rate, but not enough to save all this. 

As we've seen from the 2005 - 2007 era, the govt, lending, and the marketplace can push the economy further than it's natural path should go. But it looks to me like the economy is telling us we've just gone past "as good as it gets." So I would hold by my original statement of 1-2 years.

I think there should be a recession starting in 2018, which would be officially identified by economists in 2019. Can it go further? Yes. Should it go further? Probably not. But the longer external stimuli try to force the economy beyond it's natural path, the more reckoning I think there will be in the next recession. 

San Francisco tells the same story.
Trends are changing. 

3.4% Unemployment rate for SF as of July 2017. 
Up from 2.9% in my graph above as of May 2016. 

Each cycle has a portion at the end where the years of trending improvements flatten out. And it looks like we're about there. 

What do you guys think? 
Am I crazy here? 
Do the graphs tell a story..? 

Hi @J. Martin: 

Thanks for this. Yea I mean what you are saying def makes sense and the graphs do tell the story and support your theory. But isn't there other factors in play here? Such as the rising of interest rates will tighten funds going into the market, and when banks loosen that grip, isn't that going to spur another round of buying frenzy? Also the bay area's economic status and it's potential should also effect one's decisions on whether or not to invest. 

Disclaimer: I'm by no means an economist or an experienced real estate data person. Just reading and learning at this point still. 

Are there other factors at play? 
Certainly. Myriad factors. 
But I found some data that seems to be telling a story. 
The Bay Area data tells a story also.
Jobs are pretty important.

Could there be another round of buying frenzy? Yes.
Do I think it's a good risk-reward time to jump in, in general, when job growth is slowing after 7 years of boom, and trends are changing? Not really. 
Is there maybe a better risk-reward time of the economic cycle? I think so. 

Don't get me wrong I love the Bay Area. (And I own a good chunk of property here).
But you could have said the same thing about the Bay Area's economic status before the last recession. If you don't have a property you can clearly transition, and are just buying because things go up.. 

Famous last words are:
"It's different this time."

Post: SF Bay Area Economic & RE Update (Ongoing)

J. Martin
#1 Real Estate Events & Meetups Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Oakland, CA
  • Posts 3,832
  • Votes 2,925
Originally posted by @J. Martin:

@Account Closed, @Andrey Y, Thank you for calling me out. 
I said this about a year ago. My perspective is very similar. (And fortunately, the data is consistent with what I was talking about a year ago I think ;)

**TRENDS ARE CHANGING**

As of May 2016 in my graph above, the CA unemployment rate stood at 5.2% and dropping. I specifically noted that the unemployment rate tended to revert before the last 3 recessions, not long after the unemployment rate hit or went below 5.0%. 

So where are we at today? 

Aug 2017: 5.1% unemployment rate in CA

15 months after the May 2016 data, we're almost back where we were then. How? After reaching a low of 4.7% - the same as the low of 4.7% last seen in the Dotcom Dec of 2000 - the unemployment rate (gasp!) went up again. This is consistent with my expectation from a year ago. If you look back above at the May 2016 data when I first said this, you don't see any upward spike. It was all pretty much downhill smooth sailing. I based my premise of reversion on history - not any rough patches then. Clearly something has changed in the trend since then. 

As Minh likes to say, history doesn't always repeat itself. But it rhymes. (And damn, sometimes it almost seems to sort of repeat itself too..)

Is there some sort of pattern here? Was I expecting that a year ago?  
Well, maybe I got lucky, but I think yes. I didn't get out a divining rod orouija board or anything. Just looked at it from a third grader point of view ;) There's some point it doesn't cross for long. Then you get one of those vertical grey lines a bit later.. 

I'm not necessarily saying that this first reversion to an increase in the CA unemployment rate in about 7 years (look at the 7yr steady decline) is going to cause a recession tomorrow. You can see that it usually bounces around or stays near the bottom for a while, then starts increasing consistently, resulting in a recession - then we "find out" (officially) we are/were in a recession 9-15 months later. There is some minor improvement in the labor force participation rate, but not enough to save all this. 

As we've seen from the 2005 - 2007 era, the govt, lending, and the marketplace can push the economy further than it's natural path should go. But it looks to me like the economy is telling us we've just gone past "as good as it gets," for the natural path of the economy. So I would hold by my original statement of 1-2 years, from last year.

I think there should be a recession starting in 2018, which would be officially identified by economists in 2019. Can it go further? Yes. Should it go further? Probably not. But the longer external stimuli try to force the economy beyond it's natural path, the more reckoning I think there will be in the next recession. 

San Francisco tells the same story.
Trends are changing. 

3.4% Unemployment rate for SF as of July 2017. 
Up from 2.9% in my graph above as of May 2016. 

Each cycle has a portion at the end where the years of trending improvements flatten out. And it looks like we're about there. 

What do you guys think? 
Am I crazy here? 
Do the graphs tell a story..? 

Again, my premise has always been that real estate appreciation in the SF Bay tends to go on a strong multi-year run after the unemployment rate has peaked, and starts to improve - and appreciation tends to be lowest in the years after the unemployment rate has approached or gone below its historical lows. 

That's the reward/risk equation I approach with the cycle.. 

Post: San Francisco Bay Summit - Oct 7 & 8, 2017 - Join the Reunion!

J. Martin
#1 Real Estate Events & Meetups Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Oakland, CA
  • Posts 3,832
  • Votes 2,925

@Brian Burke
No one can find deals any more, but you're still out there finding and funding them on a regular basis.

A lot of it is hard work and determination. But people get discouraged. 
Do you mind sharing about how many properties you have to look at, and how many offers/negotiations you get in, for each deal that you close? 

What type of characteristics are you looking for in cities that you invest in? Does affordability of rents/prices for the local population play a roll? (The San Francisco Bay seems to have limited upside on the affordability side, so that's always in the back of my mind...)

@Keong Kam
Glad you're as excited as I am! Lots of great folks coming out to share :)

Post: San Francisco Bay Summit - Oct 7 & 8, 2017 - Join the Reunion!

J. Martin
#1 Real Estate Events & Meetups Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Oakland, CA
  • Posts 3,832
  • Votes 2,925

@David Lecko

I got your message, and will try to get ahold of you today. 

@Metra Ulloa
Welcome out for your first Summit! @Bill Exeter is the 1031 exchange pro coming out to the Summit, so be sure to connect with him. @Andrew Fingado is still looking at Stockton to buy I think, so connect with him. Might be able to provide you more flexible timing on the sale if his investment criteria matches what you're selling. You'll pick up lots of tips on operating your business, connecting with service providers, and of course investors from around the San Francisco Bay Area and around the country. 

Gilroy isn't too far from Santa Cruz. Have you been to @Shane Pearlman's meetup? (in Capitola I believe?)

@Johnson H. also has a great meetup in Milpitas. And @Jeff Pollack also has a great meetup in San Jose. I used to drive all the way down from Richmond and Oakland to attend these, and do business with people I've met down there. 

@Will Barnard,
Looking forward to seeing you with Bruce at "I Survived Real Estate," and of course even more so about the Summit! Are you taking some time to relax or go on vacation while the market's a little hotter Will? Or does the money burn a hole in your pocket and keep you aggressive? Bruce has been talking about "Quadrant IV"/late cycle investing. But part of the reason I decided to travel so much is it's too much effort for the risk on a lot of deals right now. Am I just lazy? Where's your next trip? 

Post: Newbie looking for market recommendations to check out...

J. Martin
#1 Real Estate Events & Meetups Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Oakland, CA
  • Posts 3,832
  • Votes 2,925

@Bruce Mac,

Welcome to BP and getting started :) Thanks for the shout out @Arlen Chou. Go meet the local investors at @Katie P.'s meetup in the East Bay, and come meet everyone at the Summit in Oct if you can make it. Kathy Fettke will be talking about the states that are most up and coming, and lots of other out of state stuff. Especially on Saturday. Networking is what freed me from my 9-5 job.. so go out and meet some folks!

@Ryder Meehan also has a SF meetup focused on out of state investing. 

There are more in the > Community > Networking events section of the site too. 

Post: Investing in Oakland

J. Martin
#1 Real Estate Events & Meetups Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Oakland, CA
  • Posts 3,832
  • Votes 2,925

@Sud Raj,

Have a couple properties in Oakland, and overall love the place. 
Rent control is the biggest PITA, for sure. 
I think there are better reward/risk times to buy than when everyone and their mom is employed, but I think that's true with most asset classes... 

If you are in an owner-occupied duplex or triplex in Oakland, it's exempt from rent control after 2 years, for as long as you live there.

Other millennial and tech cities are the typical suspects.. Seattle, Portland, Austin.. 

Post: House Hacking in Bay Area @>$1M!!!!

J. Martin
#1 Real Estate Events & Meetups Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Oakland, CA
  • Posts 3,832
  • Votes 2,925

@Keong Kam,

You're right you can't do FHA at that price point.
But check with credit unions like San Francisco Credit Union. They're doing 0% down on >$1MM single family homes, so they might let you get away with 10-20% on a 4plex. They understand the higher-priced market. Maybe check with SoFi also? (not sure about them, but they're thinking outside the box..). Probably will depend a lot on your personal finances. 

@Carson Wilcox,

I own 2 4plexes in the SF Bay that I will gladly sell you for less than a $million right now, and closer to SF than Vallejo! It is hard to find a 4plex in an area you'd really want to live in for under $1MM though.. ;)

Post: Back up cleaner and handyman on the Peninsula of Bay Area, CA

J. Martin
#1 Real Estate Events & Meetups Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Oakland, CA
  • Posts 3,832
  • Votes 2,925

@Willi W.,

My people are up in Richmond, so Peninsula isn't good for them. I'm planning on finding someone down there also, so they don't have to drive so far. But my team has been wrapped up with the Summit, so haven't done it yet.. 

I would check also check nextdoor.com. Great place to find local people.. 

Post: Which city in San Francisco bay area should i start

J. Martin
#1 Real Estate Events & Meetups Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Oakland, CA
  • Posts 3,832
  • Votes 2,925
Originally posted by @Account Closed:

@Amit M. and @Robert C.,

Looks like both of you haven't dealt enough with commercial loans to know the delicacy of them. Inflexibility? These loans are more flexible than anything else. We can almost literally underwrite our own loan terms. Can you do that with Fannie/Freddie loans?

I was going to let you guys have the last words, but the teacher in me suggests I should share it so others can benefit so here it goes ;)

If history is any indication, rents and housing prices tend to rise first followed by interest rates. Interest rate increase tend to be a correlation of taming down inflation likely due to the hot economy. Thus, interest rate is a lagging indicator. 

For rents to stay flat or trend down while interest rates move higher, this condition tends to be short-lived. As we enter the recession, rents and housing prices tend to get soft, and interest rates would follow and drop shortly after. For anyone to argue otherwise, they're arguing against history.

I'm an avid student of history and have benefit from it so I respect it. My thesis has been that we would see lower interest rate after the next recession. I wouldn't be surprised to see 30-year fixed mortgages in the 2%ish. I have shared my thesis with @J. Martin and @Johnson H. since we first knew each other several years ago. Thus, I believe getting 30-year fixed mortgages may not be a prudent move given the premium in rates.

With respect to liquidity, say the building is worth $1M and we obtain a 70% LTV in today. When the 10-year balloon comes due, the loan balance is about $550k. God forbid the building is worth $700k when the loan comes due. Did you know you can actually go to the bank and negotiate for a 75-80% LTV and put 5-10% of the liquidity in the reserve account until the building reaches the desired LTV? Once the desired LTV amount has reached, the reserve will be released. $1M in liquidity is huge in this scenario. Can you do that with residential loans when your LTV is not there when you want to refinance because interest rate is at 2% instead of 3.5%? This happened during the GFC. Many people wanted to refinance to lower their mortgage payment but couldn't because they had no liquidity and the property value wasn't there.

Johnson and I chat on a regular basis. He has watched how I've continued to modify my acquisition and loan strategies through the years to adapt with the market conditions at the given time. Johnson is always there to be sure I don't stretch myself too thin or do anything stupid. I'm going to continue to invest and finance based on my thesis while I suggest you do what you feel comfortable with. There's really no right or wrong answer.

Someone reached out to me yesterday due to my post on this thread. He's been a 2-4 unit investor in the Bay. He recently got into 5+ unit and forced appreciate 50% on his recent acquisition just in a few months. He felt it was like cheating. He wish he got into commercial years ago. It goes back to the lack of knowledge that scares others. 

I won't try to convince anyone to get into commercial. Do what you're comfortable with as you're the one living with the consequences. This reminds me of the quote "Our lives are a direct result of our choices. If we don't like our lives, it's time to make better choices."

Enjoy your time in Tel Aviv. See you in October at J's Summit in Oakland? Hey, have to make a plug for the brother. ;)

 Minh,
I agree that 30-yr rates will likely be lower at some time the next down cycle. It might be another question as to where banks are at on lending, where the person is at in their personal life/wealth/cash flow/documentation, etc. e.g., When I got my last 30-yr fixed, I was a working stiff that had great salary documentation. Now I'm traveling the world running my biz. And not all lenders look at that the same way. Lending terms are definitely different now than they were in 2010-12. Including in commercial loans. And there were a lot of losses on commercial loans also. I was one of the regulators in those banks looking at the individual deals and policy underwriting criteria (in addition to exceptions.)

I go back and forth on the fixed vs variable. The fixed rate premium I see essentially as an insurance policy. I'm not super wealthy, so I like the insurance (as long as that premium is not too high. I think it was 75bp on residential last time I looked, but probably bigger spread for commercial) As long as I can pay my insurance and Prop-13-capped taxes, it doesn't matter what happens to market prices, lending/bank terms, personal circumstances, documentation, etc. Just pay the bill as it comes in and you don't have to worry about any of that. For those that are wealthy and better financial standing, their personal strength and overall LTV might better support lending in most or nearly all environments. But even very wealthy people ran into issues in the crisis. So never say never.

In regards to term/length of loan, the bullet payments present some of the same risks (due in 10 years). The refinance depends partially on internal (you) factors and partially on external factors (bank lending terms, RE market price changes, personal financial turmoil, etc. ) - specifically at the time you are trying to refinance. 

On the multifamily vs 4plex.. I probably should have got into multifamily earlier. But 2-4 units were still more heavily discounted at the time. And I was definitely influenced by the 30yr fixed. Maybe partially because I saw so many people get burned during the GFC due to the clock running out rather than being on a fully amortized term. (back in bank regulation days.) It's like growing up during the great depression.. sticks in your mind.. 

I agree, there's really no right or wrong. 
But I think with 2-4 unit prices no longer providing the same market appreciation ride from the bottom, there is a lot more proportional opportunity in the 5+ unit buildings you can force appreciation on. And the fixed vs variable is more of a personal wealth/insurance issue, IMHO. 

Post: San Francisco Bay Summit - Oct 7 & 8, 2017 - Join the Reunion!

J. Martin
#1 Real Estate Events & Meetups Contributor
Posted
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Oakland, CA
  • Posts 3,832
  • Votes 2,925

@Jay Hinrichs,

I'll pencil you in for a breakout session on Saturday afternoon, and maybe we can see what topics are of most interest to the attendees that isn't covered yet (since you've done pretty much everything!). I'm sure J and Will are going to be stoked to meet you too. And you'll be able to see Bruce on Saturday also. 

@Bac Nguyen
Happy to help. Glad Jay can make it too! He's invaluable.

@Dante G.,

These posts have a lot about my first deals and how I got started. Then shoot me a text.
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/223/topics/292059-i-quit-my-job-this-week----with-help-from-bp-at-31yo

https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/223/topics/194831-success-through-bp-3-000th-post-4-years-a-summit--1mm-in-re-1-wholesale-probate-deal-8-rehabs-1-master-lease-50-airbnb-guests-and-100-tenant-headaches-later

Thanks for offering up a room! Very generous of you :)

@Ethan Cooke,
Glad you're excited too! I responded on your furnished rental thread, and saw Andrew and @Ariel Smith jump in. She honestly probably knows the most about what demand looks like in the area. So take that into consideration. 

@Beverly Buella,

@Al Williamson, an investor sharing at our event has a very intentional way he combines Airbnb to provide affordable housing in some of his units, and most developers in the SF Bay Area include at least some portion of affordable housing in their new projects (partially, as required by law.) So most developers out here that are coming will have at least some experience with it :) 

Looking forward to seeing you all out here! :)