All Forum Posts by: Peter Walther
Peter Walther has started 32 posts and replied 1655 times.
Post: Title Issue w/ Past Divorce
- Specialist
- Winter Springs, FL
- Posts 1,688
- Votes 732
A title insurer doesn't render a legal opinion, it advises what its requirements are in order to insure title without exception for a particular matter. If the insurer wants a release or deed from the (ex)spouse, then that's what they want. You can always ask a different underwriter if they'll insure w/o the deed.
Post: Not COVERED - TITLE Insurance issue- THOUGHTS appreciated to remedy
- Specialist
- Winter Springs, FL
- Posts 1,688
- Votes 732
Quote from @Ken M.:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Quote from @Ken M.:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Your friend really needs to get some advice from a good real estate attorney who practices in the area where the property is.
That written, first, as has been pointed out several times, it sounds like your friend has received the benefit of his title policy, so I doubt there's any recourse there. For the next time, in my experience, a title policy can be issued for the expected value of the property after the improvements are completed. An Owner's Policy will probably have a clause that limits the amount of insurance to the value of the property as of the date the claim is made. In your friend's situation, the loss would not be the amount he has spent improving the property, but the value of the property as improved by the partial construction. For a lender's policy, it would be the amount of money disbursed under the mortgage/deed of trust. Now that's the amount of insurance and not necessarily the amount of the loss which could be a different calculation.
Second, if memory serves me, a claim for unjust enrichment requires the cause of action be based on a contract between the parties where the plaintiff (your friend) performed a service for the defendant (the property owner) for which the plaintiff had an expectation to be paid. In my opinion your friend might have a cause of action for equitable improvement, but the possibility for success depends entirely on the specific facts. Again, you friend needs to get to an attorney.
Lastly, your friend is not looking to have title restored to him as he never likely never had title since generally title cannot not pass under a forged deed unless the deed transfer has been recorded in a Torrens title state, he's going to ask to be paid back for the value of the improvement. For example, if the improvements don't meet code, he shouldn't expect to be repaid the $200k he paid to make the improvements. He should expect to be ordered to remove the improvements at his expense.
Unjust enrichment is used when there is NOT a contract... but under circumstances where it would be inequitable for the defendant to keep the benefits received from the plaintiff without compensation/restitution.
If there WAS a contract the plaintiff would just sue for breach. The existence of a contract is actually a defense to an unjust enrichment claim.
The plaintiff here was defrauded (albeit by a third party) into providing a large benefit to the property owner. Not as a gift and not voluntarily... so it's worth further research. And if it all fails, I love @Ed O. 's idea.
Purposefully deleted comment.
Sound like title theft.
No such thing, a forged deed passes no title.
Your comment: "No such thing, a forged deed passes no title."
Hahahhahahahahhahhah. I love your sense of humor.
Where is THAT coming from?
You may want to rewrite that in a way that makes sense.
Now, if you said "A provably forged document doesn't pass title" I might agree. But, as you already know, it isn't proven until a trier of fact decides it was/wasn't forged after a long arduous lawsuit.
The question is, "If a title company thinks it's legit, and offers title insurance on it, then it's legit until someone takes it to court and proves it isn't legit." The ability to detect accurately, forged signatures is miniscule.
It is so difficult, it has to go to the Supreme Court
Gilbert v. United States, 370 U.S. 650 (1962)and
Forgery Cases Give Supreme Court Opportunity to Hold Unions Accountable for Shady Tacticshttps://www.dailysignal.com/2023/01/10/forgery-cases-give-su...
But, I digress. Anytime ownership is questioned, an attorney and lots of money are required to settle things. That is why there is a difference between Quit Claim Deeds and Warranty Deeds and Special Warranty Deeds.
So I didn't rob the bank until I'm convicted?
Post: Not COVERED - TITLE Insurance issue- THOUGHTS appreciated to remedy
- Specialist
- Winter Springs, FL
- Posts 1,688
- Votes 732
Quote from @Ken M.:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Quote from @Ken M.:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Your friend really needs to get some advice from a good real estate attorney who practices in the area where the property is.
That written, first, as has been pointed out several times, it sounds like your friend has received the benefit of his title policy, so I doubt there's any recourse there. For the next time, in my experience, a title policy can be issued for the expected value of the property after the improvements are completed. An Owner's Policy will probably have a clause that limits the amount of insurance to the value of the property as of the date the claim is made. In your friend's situation, the loss would not be the amount he has spent improving the property, but the value of the property as improved by the partial construction. For a lender's policy, it would be the amount of money disbursed under the mortgage/deed of trust. Now that's the amount of insurance and not necessarily the amount of the loss which could be a different calculation.
Second, if memory serves me, a claim for unjust enrichment requires the cause of action be based on a contract between the parties where the plaintiff (your friend) performed a service for the defendant (the property owner) for which the plaintiff had an expectation to be paid. In my opinion your friend might have a cause of action for equitable improvement, but the possibility for success depends entirely on the specific facts. Again, you friend needs to get to an attorney.
Lastly, your friend is not looking to have title restored to him as he never likely never had title since generally title cannot not pass under a forged deed unless the deed transfer has been recorded in a Torrens title state, he's going to ask to be paid back for the value of the improvement. For example, if the improvements don't meet code, he shouldn't expect to be repaid the $200k he paid to make the improvements. He should expect to be ordered to remove the improvements at his expense.
Unjust enrichment is used when there is NOT a contract... but under circumstances where it would be inequitable for the defendant to keep the benefits received from the plaintiff without compensation/restitution.
If there WAS a contract the plaintiff would just sue for breach. The existence of a contract is actually a defense to an unjust enrichment claim.
The plaintiff here was defrauded (albeit by a third party) into providing a large benefit to the property owner. Not as a gift and not voluntarily... so it's worth further research. And if it all fails, I love @Ed O. 's idea.
Purposefully deleted comment.
Sound like title theft.
No such thing, a forged deed passes no title.
I'll assume you misspoke and we'll call it good. Have a good weekend.
No I didn't, a forged deed doesn't convey any title, except as I noted earlier, it does if the deed is registered in a Torrens land title recording system, and I believe there are 11 of them in the US. Torrens Certificate: Principles, Pros and Cons, Example
Post: Not COVERED - TITLE Insurance issue- THOUGHTS appreciated to remedy
- Specialist
- Winter Springs, FL
- Posts 1,688
- Votes 732
Quote from @Ken M.:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Your friend really needs to get some advice from a good real estate attorney who practices in the area where the property is.
That written, first, as has been pointed out several times, it sounds like your friend has received the benefit of his title policy, so I doubt there's any recourse there. For the next time, in my experience, a title policy can be issued for the expected value of the property after the improvements are completed. An Owner's Policy will probably have a clause that limits the amount of insurance to the value of the property as of the date the claim is made. In your friend's situation, the loss would not be the amount he has spent improving the property, but the value of the property as improved by the partial construction. For a lender's policy, it would be the amount of money disbursed under the mortgage/deed of trust. Now that's the amount of insurance and not necessarily the amount of the loss which could be a different calculation.
Second, if memory serves me, a claim for unjust enrichment requires the cause of action be based on a contract between the parties where the plaintiff (your friend) performed a service for the defendant (the property owner) for which the plaintiff had an expectation to be paid. In my opinion your friend might have a cause of action for equitable improvement, but the possibility for success depends entirely on the specific facts. Again, you friend needs to get to an attorney.
Lastly, your friend is not looking to have title restored to him as he never likely never had title since generally title cannot not pass under a forged deed unless the deed transfer has been recorded in a Torrens title state, he's going to ask to be paid back for the value of the improvement. For example, if the improvements don't meet code, he shouldn't expect to be repaid the $200k he paid to make the improvements. He should expect to be ordered to remove the improvements at his expense.
Unjust enrichment is used when there is NOT a contract... but under circumstances where it would be inequitable for the defendant to keep the benefits received from the plaintiff without compensation/restitution.
If there WAS a contract the plaintiff would just sue for breach. The existence of a contract is actually a defense to an unjust enrichment claim.
The plaintiff here was defrauded (albeit by a third party) into providing a large benefit to the property owner. Not as a gift and not voluntarily... so it's worth further research. And if it all fails, I love @Ed O. 's idea.
Purposefully deleted comment.
Sound like title theft.
No such thing, a forged deed passes no title.
Post: Not COVERED - TITLE Insurance issue- THOUGHTS appreciated to remedy
- Specialist
- Winter Springs, FL
- Posts 1,688
- Votes 732
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Your friend really needs to get some advice from a good real estate attorney who practices in the area where the property is.
That written, first, as has been pointed out several times, it sounds like your friend has received the benefit of his title policy, so I doubt there's any recourse there. For the next time, in my experience, a title policy can be issued for the expected value of the property after the improvements are completed. An Owner's Policy will probably have a clause that limits the amount of insurance to the value of the property as of the date the claim is made. In your friend's situation, the loss would not be the amount he has spent improving the property, but the value of the property as improved by the partial construction. For a lender's policy, it would be the amount of money disbursed under the mortgage/deed of trust. Now that's the amount of insurance and not necessarily the amount of the loss which could be a different calculation.
Second, if memory serves me, a claim for unjust enrichment requires the cause of action be based on a contract between the parties where the plaintiff (your friend) performed a service for the defendant (the property owner) for which the plaintiff had an expectation to be paid. In my opinion your friend might have a cause of action for equitable improvement, but the possibility for success depends entirely on the specific facts. Again, you friend needs to get to an attorney.
Lastly, your friend is not looking to have title restored to him as he never likely never had title since generally title cannot not pass under a forged deed unless the deed transfer has been recorded in a Torrens title state, he's going to ask to be paid back for the value of the improvement. For example, if the improvements don't meet code, he shouldn't expect to be repaid the $200k he paid to make the improvements. He should expect to be ordered to remove the improvements at his expense.
Unjust enrichment is used when there is NOT a contract... but under circumstances where it would be inequitable for the defendant to keep the benefits received from the plaintiff without compensation/restitution.
If there WAS a contract the plaintiff would just sue for breach. The existence of a contract is actually a defense to an unjust enrichment claim.
The plaintiff here was defrauded (albeit by a third party) into providing a large benefit to the property owner. Not as a gift and not voluntarily... so it's worth further research. And if it all fails, I love @Ed O. 's idea.
I'm not an attorney, but I think it's also known as a quasi-contract or an implied contract and requires both parties to be aware of the benefit being exchanged.
Post: Not COVERED - TITLE Insurance issue- THOUGHTS appreciated to remedy
- Specialist
- Winter Springs, FL
- Posts 1,688
- Votes 732
Quote from @Tom Gimer:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Your friend really needs to get some advice from a good real estate attorney who practices in the area where the property is.
That written, first, as has been pointed out several times, it sounds like your friend has received the benefit of his title policy, so I doubt there's any recourse there. For the next time, in my experience, a title policy can be issued for the expected value of the property after the improvements are completed. An Owner's Policy will probably have a clause that limits the amount of insurance to the value of the property as of the date the claim is made. In your friend's situation, the loss would not be the amount he has spent improving the property, but the value of the property as improved by the partial construction. For a lender's policy, it would be the amount of money disbursed under the mortgage/deed of trust. Now that's the amount of insurance and not necessarily the amount of the loss which could be a different calculation.
Second, if memory serves me, a claim for unjust enrichment requires the cause of action be based on a contract between the parties where the plaintiff (your friend) performed a service for the defendant (the property owner) for which the plaintiff had an expectation to be paid. In my opinion your friend might have a cause of action for equitable improvement, but the possibility for success depends entirely on the specific facts. Again, you friend needs to get to an attorney.
Lastly, your friend is not looking to have title restored to him as he never likely never had title since generally title cannot not pass under a forged deed unless the deed transfer has been recorded in a Torrens title state, he's going to ask to be paid back for the value of the improvement. For example, if the improvements don't meet code, he shouldn't expect to be repaid the $200k he paid to make the improvements. He should expect to be ordered to remove the improvements at his expense.
Unjust enrichment is used when there is NOT a contract... but under circumstances where it would be inequitable for the defendant to keep the benefits received from the plaintiff without compensation/restitution.
If there WAS a contract the plaintiff would just sue for breach. The existence of a contract is actually a defense to an unjust enrichment claim.
The plaintiff here was defrauded (albeit by a third party) into providing a large benefit to the property owner. Not as a gift and not voluntarily... so it's worth further research. And if it all fails, I love @Ed O. 's idea.
Not according to Cornell Law:
Unjust enrichment occurs when Party A confers a benefit upon Party B without Party A receiving the proper restitution required by law. This typically occurs in a contractual agreement when Party A fulfills their part of the agreement and Party B does not fulfill their part of the agreement.
unjust enrichment | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute
Post: Looking to flip in Broward County, FL - here are my notes and questions
- Specialist
- Winter Springs, FL
- Posts 1,688
- Votes 732
Quote from @Terrence M Brannon:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
The low judgement amount vs the estimate market value leads me to believe these may be HOA or COA foreclosures in which case 1st mtgs will survive and the purchaser will be taking subject to. Do you know how to search/examine title and read/understand foreclosure pleadings?
I do not know how to title search or read foreclosure pleadings.
Then this may be an area of real estate investing for you to work with a person with some experience before trying it on your own.
Post: Not COVERED - TITLE Insurance issue- THOUGHTS appreciated to remedy
- Specialist
- Winter Springs, FL
- Posts 1,688
- Votes 732
Your friend really needs to get some advice from a good real estate attorney who practices in the area where the property is.
That written, first, as has been pointed out several times, it sounds like your friend has received the benefit of his title policy, so I doubt there's any recourse there. For the next time, in my experience, a title policy can be issued for the expected value of the property after the improvements are completed. An Owner's Policy will probably have a clause that limits the amount of insurance to the value of the property as of the date the claim is made. In your friend's situation, the loss would not be the amount he has spent improving the property, but the value of the property as improved by the partial construction. For a lender's policy, it would be the amount of money disbursed under the mortgage/deed of trust. Now that's the amount of insurance and not necessarily the amount of the loss which could be a different calculation.
Second, if memory serves me, a claim for unjust enrichment requires the cause of action be based on a contract between the parties where the plaintiff (your friend) performed a service for the defendant (the property owner) for which the plaintiff had an expectation to be paid. In my opinion your friend might have a cause of action for equitable improvement, but the possibility for success depends entirely on the specific facts. Again, you friend needs to get to an attorney.
Lastly, your friend is not looking to have title restored to him as he never likely never had title since generally title cannot not pass under a forged deed unless the deed transfer has been recorded in a Torrens title state, he's going to ask to be paid back for the value of the improvement. For example, if the improvements don't meet code, he shouldn't expect to be repaid the $200k he paid to make the improvements. He should expect to be ordered to remove the improvements at his expense.
Post: Looking to flip in Broward County, FL - here are my notes and questions
- Specialist
- Winter Springs, FL
- Posts 1,688
- Votes 732
The low judgement amount vs the estimate market value leads me to believe these may be HOA or COA foreclosures in which case 1st mtgs will survive and the purchaser will be taking subject to. Do you know how to search/examine title and read/understand foreclosure pleadings?
Post: Title Insurance costs
- Specialist
- Winter Springs, FL
- Posts 1,688
- Votes 732
I believe CT is a filed rate state where each title insurer sets their own premium rate which is filed and approved by the state and the insurer must adhere to those rates. The rates are public information. As a practical matter, most insurers use the same rates (the lowest) so as to be competitive with the other insurers. The difference in the cost to close generally results from higher or lower ancillary services costs, such as search, exam, doc prep, attorney fees and closing fee. The best thing any buyer can do is shop around, but keep in mind that just as in any purchase of a product or service, the lowest cost might not be the best price. Experience and ability doesn't come cheap.