All Forum Posts by: V.G Jason
V.G Jason has started 15 posts and replied 3397 times.
Post: Comparing IRR of real estate vs. other investment types

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Quote from @Peter W.:
Quote from @Becca F.:
In an effort to see my properties (long-term rentals) are performing, I'm using Internal Rate of Return (IRR). I started comparing these to how my index funds and stocks are doing. I have a couple of REITs and other public market funds (Master Limited Partnerships and Business Development Companies.
Except for few blips like in 2022 and in few months ago, the S&P500 has done really well. I've had returns of tech index funds and stocks in the 15 to 20% range, with a few outliers of 24% over a 3 year period. These numbers don't seem sustainable over the long term. Hasn't the S&P500 had an average 11% return over 50 years? I'm using 8% to be on the conservative side and comparing it to my properties' IRR
I compared my Class A Indianapolis home - the IRR was 12% to 40% depending on which cost basis I used, the original purchase price in 2013 or the cash out refi amount in 2021. The lower number was around Year 1 to 4 then IRR went up at Year 5. This one was a bit muddled, not as straightforward as the Class C numbers since there was a cash out refi
For the Class C Indy home bought in 2023, my IRR was negative to 2% at Year 20 to at best 6% at Year 20. I used 3% appreciation and 3% rent increases for each year with $3600 for annual maintenance costs (my -$300 a month). Optimistically then I used $1500 for the annual maintenance costs, with the reasoning that this home should stabilize at some point, although I think there would be large cap ex the longer I keep it, needing new HVAC, roof, etc.
Here's the calculator I used (those are pre-populated numbers by the site owners, not mine):
https://www.calculator.net/rental-property-calculator.html
Anything missing with this calculator? Is there a better calculator I should be using?
With index funds and stocks, I don't get tax benefits like rental expenses, depreciation, etc but the IRR is higher and what I'd consider more passive income and the exit strategy is much easier than exiting out of a bad property. I do have to pay taxes on this or any interest income from HYSA. The prevailing financial advice I've seen is buy 3 to 4 good index funds (e.g VOO, VTI) and just let it grow, maybe check it every few months, the "VOO and chill".
Also curious to hear from others as far as investment types: crypto, bitcoin, oil and gas, precious metals, I don't have a full understanding of crypto/bitcoin and have heard that it's volatile. Thoughts on the IRRs for those types of investments and how you feel they compare to RE (residential)?
I'm of the mind that the tech monopolies, those with business monopolies and moats will continue to have ROEs near historic values which is 15-20% so I expect them to continue to perform at those levels. Part of the key of stock investing is determining which have deep moats for their business and which do not, as well as what the ROE for a variety of businesses are. Once you pick the handful of companies that you like, you have to keep in an eye on new technology which threatens the businesses.
For me it's:
Microsoft, Facebook, Google have the strongest moats in their businesses. Although potentially Google's search dominance will be threatened by the new LLMs (to be determined).
Amazon, Apple, Nvidia, and ASML have the next strongest moats.
Tesla, Netflix almost no moat (which is why FAANG is no longer a thing). And why Tesla, which, despite my belief in Elon as a businessman, is probably a worse bet than the rest of the magnificent 7.
The other important thing here, is that software is the best business to be in, the margins are insane like 70%+ which is why they are cash cows in a way that hardware businesses aren't.
One more point, the tech monopolies drive almost all of the gain in the S&P500.
In bold, I think that's Becca's issue.
With that said, as we get close(r) to rate cuts you'll see some consolidation in that and therefore the RSP(equal weight), the small caps(IWM) and Russell 2000 will go bid into it.
Typical behavior. Take some profit off the table, and buy into small caps for growth. Just consolidation, nothing like a crash.
Crash at this point is only from a swan event.
Post: $30K+ in Equity, -$100/Month in Cash Flow — Worth Holding or Time to Walk?

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Quote from @Carissa Atendido:
@V.G Jason thanks for your response. I'm honestly questioning real estate investing as a whole now. Don't get me wrong. I learned a lot from this experience. But I'm now thinking maybe it's best to just invest in the market- S&P 500 will get me better returns in just a few years vs waiting 10-15 years
Thats my point, too. If you put money in the S&P today and it goes down 20% in 2028. What are you going to do?
Any investing needs to be on the term aspect.
The advantage of equities is liquidity.
Post: Comparing IRR of real estate vs. other investment types

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Quote from @Jonathan Bock:
Most investors need to do this but it never happens they just guess.
Yes, if your active real estate is not beating the passive play why invest your life and money into the project ?
Against other asset classes, RE will perform very dependent upon a few variables that you control. The other asset classes will perform entirely independent of you.
Thats just the plain difference. IRR and other metrics really shouldn't be used. And all backtesting confirms history-- doesn't mean anything about the future.
With that said, I've stressed 97-99% of this board is not fit for RE. And that same percentage isn't really fit for investing until they get their consumer debt out of the way. The others, we can have this conversation.
What do you want to know Becca, specifically? The S&P average return is just a mean, go check the actual history it never is linearly like that it's bloated years, pullback, stagnant years, harsh pull back, then rally.
forget using metrics, understand money.
Post: $30K+ in Equity, -$100/Month in Cash Flow — Worth Holding or Time to Walk?

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Quote from @Carissa Atendido:
@Rick Pozos yes, but there's still the $30K in walk in equity. Plus I plan to hold this for up to 4-5 years - by that time - the property would have appreciated more and hopefully enough where I recoup my initial investment .
I've been any listing deals for what seems like forever and never made a move becuase I was looking for the perfect deal. From what Ive learned, the perfect deal doesn't exist and if I wait around trying to find it, I'll be on the sidelines forever. For my first investment, I wanted it to be as turnkey as possible or knowing that's I don't have the stomach (yet) for a rehab project.
You are asking the wrong questions, but gave the right information.
4-5 years time frame is too small for any real phys investment. Forget the $30k, or -$100 nonsense you're talking, step away cause you are not meant for this venture. Start doing this when your hold period is 12-15 years.
Sitting on the sidelines is better than taking a deal you cannot commit to. Way too many other investment applications to tend to, also.
Post: Is Phoenix Arizona a good market?

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Quote from @Ken M.:
Quote from @V.G Jason:
Short answer yes. All RE is a long term hold. Phoenix is an excellent long term play.
How "long" is "long term"? Plus, if a better choice exists, doesn't it make sense to choose the better choice? Plus, it's a matter of "how" you buy a property that determines what makes for a "good" long term investment.
I'm currently acquiring a "good" long term investment in Phoenix using "Subject To" at 3% interest to cash flow a property with 10% existing equity for an investor from California. That make's it a very interesting "long term investment" even in today's market, especially compared to "long term" investing in California losing money every month.
I've always believed that cash flowing a property in Phoenix and seeing additional appreciation, trumps a negative cash flowing property in California. Just my personal experience.
Cash flow is a function of leverage in the deal. And buying right is essential. Those fundamentals don't change, but assuming all variables the same then Phoenix is excellent relative to the general market.
Post: Is Phoenix Arizona a good market?

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Short answer yes. All RE is a long term hold. Phoenix is an excellent long term play.
Post: Phoenix Market Slides Again - More Decline Expected

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Quote from @Ken M.:
Phoenix Housing Market Enters Correction Phase After June Brings Price Drops
The Greater Phoenix housing market continued its gradual reset in June 2025, signaling a clear shift in momentum from sellers to buyers according to a report from The Ravenscroft Group. Home prices dipped modestly, builders ramped up incentives, and buyers found themselves in the strongest negotiating position in years—marking a pivotal moment for one of the nation’s hottest real estate regions.
While not a repeat of the 2008 housing crash, market data shows a softening across key indicators, as elevated mortgage rates, seasonal slowdowns, and affordability pressures weigh on demand.
According to the group, the median sales price in Phoenix edged down to $449,500, a 0.3% dip from May’s $451,000. Phoenix’s Market Index—a measure of supply vs. demand—fell to 71, further cementing the area’s tilt toward a buyer’s market.
With 30-year fixed mortgage rates hovering around 6.89%, homebuilders are stepping in to maintain momentum. Many are offering interest rate buydowns into the mid-3% range, along with generous closing cost credits, appliance packages, and landscaping perks. This reality has made new construction homes particularly appealing to buyers, many of whom are priced out of the resale market due to borrowing costs.
Real estate trends varied across the Valley in June. Buckeye saw the steepest price shift at -8% while Fountain Hills and Phoenix proper each declined by -6%. Cave Creek transitioned into buyer’s market territory, and Avondale moved from a seller’s to a balanced market.
As of June, the groups says 2 cities are in seller’s markets, 7 cities are considered balanced, and 9 cities have shifted into buyer’s market territory. Outlying cities like Arizona City, Casa Grande, and Gold Canyon lean even more heavily toward buyers.
High recurring costs—such as HOA dues and special assessments—are driving buyers away from attached housing. The listing success rate for condos and townhomes dropped to 58% in May, the lowest since 2011. Manufactured homes fared worse, with fewer than half of listings resulting in a sale.
https://azfreenews.com/2025/08/phoenix-housing-market-enters...
I have entered the chat.
Almost start to bid here, but we got a bit. Another month before I got the time to get back up to one of the greatest cities ever created.
For now, Austin is very similar in this metric and I am successful given my (limited) efforts. The harsh reality is, it's not just buyers that cannot affords these rates & prices it's also seller's cannot afford the cuts due to being underwater. It's both parties in the squirm of a mire.
Post: How many people do actually really live 100% off rental cash flow?

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Quote from @Bob Ritner:
Quote from @Marcus Auerbach:
@Jeremy Horton I think you are makeing a good point about REI not being for everyone and some would be better off with an $&P500 index. And there is a big difference between really passive income and working as a handyman and PM. But they key difference is that tenant's will pay off the properties for you, can't do that with stocks.
I was really curious a couple of years ago about how I would have done in an S&P 500 index fund over the past 24 years vs my real estate investments so I did a detailed analysis comparing the total return of SPY vs the pre-tax net income from my rental properties plus rental property appreciation. What I found was that my real estate portfolio returned 1/2 percent less than SPY's total return before factoring in real estate leverage and depreciation. After factoring in those two items, my real estate portfolio won hands down. The caveat to all of this is that I was conservative with my real estate purchases and leverage, and only purchased with the numbers told me to purchase.
24 years ago is 2001. So you're including a great depression level metric in equities at the mid point-- yes that's not an exaggeration. SPY vs Gold from 2001-2011 was a 90% drawdown.
And whether that's an input or output in RE, a historic opportunity in regards to affordability in housing. We'll have some outliers in such a long time span to compare, but the latter one may not just be an outlier but an once in a centurial type of outlier. Secondly, back testing proves nothing but history is right. Unfortunately, history is not the future and it doesn't always rhyme or whatever nonsense that comes with it. Predictions are a face, preparation is everything.
The goal right now for the average wannabe RE folk with a $60-$80k income is not to get levered up and try to buy a house(for investment) its figure out what investment gives them the margin of safety plus upside potential. Then god forbid I say this-- concentrate it. And I'll tell you right now for the average BP folk, it's not RE. Too much leverage, too much physical asset risk, too much illiquidity.
People just want to make the shoe fit. Diversify into RE once you are in a position of strength, there's other avenues right now.
Post: Putting $1M into Crypto

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@Becca F.
Your tech is up so much because it's getting obliterated "in dollars". It needs to expand to defeat the dollar devaluation.
Is it a bubble, is it a safe haven? No way to really know just know that everything needs expansion if earnings justify it because then the dollar requires it.
That's what leads to concentration. Now liquidity and leverage will determine the short term vol & trend, but fundamentals will determine the path.
Post: Why class A areas actually cashflow higher long term then "cashflow areas"

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Is this the anti-thesis of that other thread?